Grip vs Drift

[Phoen_x]

http://c.1asphost.com/CP9A/PD.doc

and for those who had no idea there was a 4th stage. Here's a Manga spoiler that was translated. Enjoy.

What kind of area do you practice at Silver Ghost?

[SilverGhost]

check your pm's......

[VRDjr]

Wait, you guys have actually started arguing about a cartoon? WOW...that's just awful.

[Ghost of Duluth]

Lol yea it is.

[Nightwalker]

Initial D is MY DRIFT BIBLE!

[SilverGhost]

its good entertainment, and it sure kicks the SH!T out of F&F.........

[artika]

Grip VS Drift
Uhh. I choose Grip.

I guess if everybody were to go out on some long raceway a good drifter would be preferred for lower-speed corner where grip wouldn't be favorable.

Take a car to the autocross. I guarentee you're going to see extremely good grippers vs. drifters. Drifting in autocross is plain suicidal, cutting away precious seconds in useless wheelspin.

I guess it depends on the car... my car, grip is favorable.
A 400whp car, drift is favorable... you can keep that baby going and never slow down, me.. well I'd have to grab another gear most likely.


Grip VS Drift again.

Oh yeah.

My choice is GRIP!

[malcolm]

Ryan Hampton, Gridracetech, and I had a good debate about this very subject. I am glad to see that the search button isn't overused.

Basically we agreed that EVER SO SLIGHT of a drift can be beneficial in SOME cases. Here are some examples:

200 mph Indy car at Indianapolis: grip all the way. Any slip angle will kill your downforce, and you'll hit the wall hard. This is essentially common with any car that has downforce and is at highspeed. (interesting note: Subaru countered this effect with their rally cars by putting many strakes underneath the wing so the air goes under it longitudinally, no matter what the slip angle may be. They act like rudders, in a way).

Le Mans GT car: on some slower corners, a slight drift (7 or 8 degrees slip MAXIMUM) on the entry to the corner can be beneficial. The reasoning behind it is that it takes energy to rotate the car, so the more you rotate it before the apex, the straighter your run can be out of the corner (ie. you can grip more on exit to maximise acceleration).

It also depends on tires. A radial slick will be maximised at about 2 or 3 degrees slip. A bias-ply slick will be maximised at about 5 to 7 degrees slip. A DOT-R radial depends from make to make, but they vary from about 3 degrees slip to as much as 7 or 8. A street-compound would be slightly more than than the r-compound DOT tire.

It also depends on cars. If you are racing a RWD GT car with a locked-diff, you NEED to drift the car slightly to be fast, especially on entry. I have also used off-throttle oversteer mid corner (just abrupt lifts of the throttle, and right back on it in an instant) with everything from a Radical SR3 (sports racer from the UK) to a 1979 Trans-Am Corvette with a locked-diff, to help me get through a corner if the car tends to understeer midcorner. Of course, although it would be a technique required in the middle of a race to minimise a loss of time, it's better to fix it with the set-up of the car if you are testing or qualifying.

To be totally honest, experimentation is the key to speed. Try stuff. Try drifting in the entry to a corner. Find out if it works for you. It worked for Senna, but it didn't work for Prost. Both amazing drivers, but they had different techniques. Personally, I have found that I prefer a car that tends to oversteer just a **SLIGHT** amount. We're not talking big smoky drifts, because those will always be slow. Also, work yourself up to your limit, then find out where around the limit you are fastest. Perhaps you tend to be faster right at, or just under the limit. Perhaps you tend to be faster just a little above the limit. Perhaps you're faster oversteering on entry, and gripping totally on exit. Try it all, then make a judgement. All the theory in the world won't answer your questions 100%. It's like arguing about religion. There's just a few too many variables for us to take into account to state a definitive answer. However, I find it fun to think about and incorporate as many variables as I can to come as close as I can to discovering the truth. You'll only ever know if there's a god when you die, and you'll only ever know if drifting is faster if you try.

[malcolm]

here's a link to the debate...

http://www.drifting.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=3

it started off as a debate on heel-and-toeing, then into downshifting mid-drift, then into grip vs. drift. Check the bottom of the page in the link, and then continue onwards through the rest of the pages.

[Oki Drifter]

Originally posted by Dilandu
But Takumi Drifts on every corner
and he always wins

LOL!

[Buddyworm]

I love reading stuff like this, you can learn quite a bit.

Originally posted by malcolm
You'll only ever know if there's a god when you die, and you'll only ever know if drifting is faster if you try.

Holy crap that was deep! It's even poetic.
B-Wurm

[malcolm]

actually, I thought it was kinda cheesy myself after I wrote it....... at least someone got a laugh out of it

[Tsunami]

I have similar feelings to Malcom on this, but here's what I have observed while watching many races over the years.

I look to WRC for my theory on it. The drivers have to deal with all kinds of stages, from gravel to tarmac to dirt, all with different traction levels. Sometimes the surface is loose and the corner is tight, requiring them to slide the car by using various techniques so that the car will turn. On high speed corners with a loose surface the slip angle is lower so they don't loose much time. On tarmac events they grip so as not to lose time, unless it's on a slippery surface, it's raining, or the corner is a tight 180. They can also be a bit liberal in what they do (cutting corners, sliding, etc.) due to their advanced electronic 4wd systems. Although WRC cars have aero aides, they are going at speeds where downforce isn't a big part of the equation, so they depend on mechanical grip to turn. That's y you see rally cars sliding more than, say an F1 car.

On a high-downforce racer like the C5R or an F1 car gripping yields the fastest times because the car relies on it's downforce to increase available traction. The cars corner so hard that keeping the car stable and smooth yields faster times; the cars are on such a thin line between grip and spinning that any kind of sliding increases lap times or results in a spin, unless the section is very tight, like S-turns or chicanes, where they will sometimes carry a small slip-angle to turn. (aka areas where the cars have to left-to-right very abruptly, or very tight corners with hard braking zones). I can sometimes see this in F1 chicanes as well. Also high-grip racecars participate in long races where tire wear comes into consideration. Gripping the car generates less heat in the tires, making them last longer, which means less pit stops and more consistent lap times.

Basically, the more cornering force the car has, the quicker it moves through the turn, and the quicker you have to be on the wheel. Some cars you can slide, others you can't.

Compared to racers, street cars are heavy with low-grip tires. Thus the driver has to work hard to extract the best times. In production-racing the drivers will slide the cars a bit to overcome understeer and to get the cars to rotate.

On the togues I'd suggest grip. You will be faster on 99% of the corners (unless it's like Japan with a ton of sharp 180's), have less risk of hurting yourself and others, and it's not as hard on the car or the tires. It all depends on the type of car, type of corner, and how good a driver you are.
That is my .02 on the subject.

[Craftsman]

I have to put my money on grip is faster than drift anytime...

Except in the rare circumstance where you don't have any traction to begin with, grip racing is always faster than drift.

This can be witnessed when racing karts. Try to run the whole track drifting it fallowing the racing line. Then try and fallow the racing line giving it precise grip driving inputs in turns. You will see a drastic difference in times. This is due to maximization of traction circle. You're using the maximum acceleration that your tires will provide you.

Matt.

[4WD-4WD]

I really love drifting and its true that D1 is not F1 but ... BUT ... drifting is an extrordinary way of racing it doesnt compare with grip. I mean if your drifting on a corner and your oponent is grip runner he could posibly pass you by the inside.