Grip vs Drift

[Craftsman]

For the record, Drifting does not equal racing...

Drifting isn't racing...Drifting is more of a spectator sport. It's one that must be judged by judges or by rules.

The fastest way around a track is by gripping the racing line and riding on the traction circle. I don't care what anyone says about this. Your maximum acceleration is always going to be on that circle.

Drifting is not a sport where time is the way to win. It's about staying tight on your lead in tandem, and SLA on solo runs.

[VWTECH]

I think craftsman, tsunami, and malcom all made awesome points. I may be wrong but wasn't drifting adapted to the streets as a way to stay in control of your vehicle when traction may be hindered by bad weather, poor road surfaces, etc.? I thought i read a quote from Keichi Tsuchiya saying he started by sliding the e-brake in the rain because he could choose when to slide and stay in control of it. I don't think any real race driver has ever tried to argue that true drifting was faster than gripping, but when conditions don't allow gripping what do you do to keep the pace up?
-my 2cents-

[scirocco]

http://www.drifting.com/forums/showt...&threadid=7820

[malcolm]

this is a difficult subject to discuss in it's entirety, because you have to take into account every single variable. The construction of the tire, the geometry of the suspension, the track surface, and probably 100 other variables that I don't even know about. Of course, there are probably another 1000 variables in each of the vague areas I just used as examples.

Also, what kinds of drifts are we talking about? The classic road racing drift, where it is neither understeer or oversteer, and all four wheels are slipping at maybe a maximum of 2 degrees? Or a big smoky showy drift where it's full opposite lock? Of course, the smoky drift will be slow. As for the four-wheel drift.... well, it's a grey area.

What is "grip?" Whenever I tire turns, it is slipping. It is a rectangular contact patch trying to go in a circle. It needs to slip a little bit. Scirocco made a nice comparison to a car with a locked diff... the inside of the tire is turning at a different radius than the outside, so therefore there has to be some slip (reduced obviously, because the tire flexes a little bit). Basically it's like a car with a locked diff, but on a smaller scale. (that also brings up another point... what about cars with locked diffs? one tire has to slip way more than the other...)

Therefore, when the tire isn't turning, and it is purely longitudinal forces, then grip will be better than slip, because you will have a higher coefficient of friction.

However, when you are turning, it's a whole other kettle of fish. The tires have to slip. Now it's just a matter of how much slip they need to be at their opitmum. half a degree? one degree? five degrees? it all changes with each construction of tire, as well as the aerodynamics of the car (if heavily aero-dependant cars get sideways, they lose a ton of downforce, and therefore lose half their grip, and therefore usually crash. hard.).

We should all know that big smoky drifts are slow. That should be obvious. Unlike the simple rigid blocks we learned about friction with in physics class in highschool, tires flex, and they are suspended from the majority of the mass that they are accelerating (positively, negatively, and in a circular motion as well). Because they flex, there isn't the simple static coefficient of friction and dynamic coefficient. I am pretty damn sure it is an inverse-square type relationship, where the force of friction drops off as the difference in speed between the tire and the surface increases. Also, the surface isn't perfect like in physics class. There are bumps, cracks, etc, etc. These not only affect the tire, but the suspension, and the rest of the mass as well.

Let's just say it's a confusing mess, and the only way to find proof is to go to the track and try for yourself. There isn't much I can say here that I haven't said in other posts...

One of these days, I am going to write up a cohesive article, and send it to one of the mods and see if they want me to post it for a sticky or something... (unless they think I am full of schist....) :P

[malcolm]

also, the more I think about it, the traction circle is only good for very basic descriptions. When you focus on that line closely, it's not really a defined line, but a bit of a grey area. Sure, it can be used to tell someone the difference between being in a safe grip zone and a huge smoky drift, but it doesn't tell the difference between zero degrees slip, and one degree of slip, and won't tell you which tire needs which slip angle.

It's good for the basics, but not for advanced comparisons.

[scirocco]

maybe my article can be a sticky as well maybe I can repost it and then your article can go before or after. Well, I doubt that'll happen, I wouldn't get around to it for a while, to busy out there racing.

[BenR]

The answer lies in a book called "Driving to Win" by Caroll Smith.

[Craftsman]

Originally posted by BenR
The answer lies in a book called "Driving to Win" by Caroll Smith.

If only... Like Malcomn said... It's alot more complex than can be explained in simple words. It'll require actual examination under labratory enviroment

Ok I'm BSing now... Anyways, my point is that Malcomn is very correct in that when you're in the dynamic region of the friction circle (I call it the friction circle because traction is friction ), the actual friction changes. It also depends on the amount of power and the amount of weight is actually transfered to that tire.

The actual dynamic friction doesn't change. It's translated to another form of energy...

Energy must be conserved, meaning that the tires are spinning but the velocity of the vehicle isn't par, that kinetic energy has to go somewhere. Conservation of energy says that the friction force that was just outputed by the tire is now translated into heat. Heat cooks the tires and now burnt rubber.



Matt.

[BenR]

Originally posted by Craftsman
If only... Like Malcomn said... It's alot more complex than can be explained in simple words. It'll require actual examination under labratory enviroment

Ok I'm BSing now... Anyways, my point is that Malcomn is very correct in that when you're in the dynamic region of the friction circle (I call it the friction circle because traction is friction ), the actual friction changes. It also depends on the amount of power and the amount of weight is actually transfered to that tire.

The actual dynamic friction doesn't change. It's translated to another form of energy...

Energy must be conserved, meaning that the tires are spinning but the velocity of the vehicle isn't par, that kinetic energy has to go somewhere. Conservation of energy says that the friction force that was just outputed by the tire is now translated into heat. Heat cooks the tires and now burnt rubber.



Matt.

It's not some magical mystical thing that cannot be understood by mere mortals. Seriously go to borders or barnes and knoble get a cup of coffie and read a few chapters of the book. You'll be glad you did.

[Craftsman]

I learned how to drive from my dynamic mechanics class and from Gran Turismo Dynamic mechanics is prolly the best way to learn what really happens and explain what really goes on physics wise. Weight transfer, friction circle, etc... They're all learned from dynamics... Of course, the stuff that you learn in dynamics isn't directly related, but with time a reader will see it's application.

You can even see why increasing your turning radius means that you can carry more speed in turns.

Drifting doesn't defy physics... It's rapes what tire engineers work so hard to accomplish...

Matt.

[Hubert Young]

Yes, drifting is straight out not practical from the point of view of grip racing, but the techniques used in drifting, IMO, are very helpful in grip racing and vice versa.

Drifting has made me more ballsy when driving grip. I am not afraid to hang the tail out when I enter a corner too hot or when I encounter slippery surface (rain, oil, etc.). You see most racers out on the track racing would have a hard time correcting if their cars' back ends do get loose. Another thing that comes in my mind that drifting is beneficial to my grip driving is that I know the limit of the car a lot more and be able to drive at the limit.

On the other hand, drifting can also be bad for grip driving. My experience is that drifting is so fun and sometimes I would be sloppy and let the car drift, losing valuable split seconds on the track when going for time attack. I always have to tell myself to refrain from getting the car sideways too much.

Hubert Young
Motorsport Dynamics/Falken/HIN/Hot Wheels S14

[scirocco]

Don't tell me you do this at time attacks:

[derrickv]

Grip all the way in a race track there's no doubt about it. If you're going down those hills portrayed in Initial D w/ continous U-turns, drift might have some use, but going Up is an entirely different matter too.

Drift is awesome for show. Grip is awesome for racing.

Do you see F1 cars drift AT ALL? F1 is at the peak of all racing sports. If drifting the cars would make them a 1/100th of a second faster then they would incorporate it in their gameplans.

Nuff said.

[Drift For Food]

...but the techniques used in drifting, IMO, are very helpful in grip racing and vice versa.

Very much agree. It's very useful to know and understand what's on both sides of the traction limit and know what to do when you do eventually oversteep. I kind of think of it this way. If you can get to the line between grip and drift is more gray then black and white, you're doing good.

Do you see F1 cars drift AT ALL?

Yes. Although their slip angles are tiny. Same goes for Nascar or any other racing sport. It's not rear end way out, full lock kind of drifting, but most racers are driving around the limits of grip.

Drift is awesome for show. Grip is awesome for racing.Nuff said.

You imply that drift can't be fast. It depends. It depends on road surface, car, tires, many things. As well, you may also be assuming there is only show drift in which case there is not. The same techniques propagate big and showy all the way down to infinitesimally small increments that pretty much can't be perceived by anyone but the driver.

Fast depends. For example, when I rally-x my car, the fastest I can go is when I am drifting always, very slight angle but it's the fastest method. Deformable surfaces benefit drifting. For auto-x, I'm mainly within the grip range, but it's because my car lacks the power to be fast enough to freely be at the edge most of the time. However, I will always step up to the point where I hover around the edge. You still need a clean line and be tidy with the car, but don't think that drifting outright means you're going to be slow. It's not drifting specifically that makes you slow. It's how you drive the car. I'm not a show drifter. I never have been. I take the hobby in a very different light, mainly car control and being able to manipulate the car on both ends of the grip limit competently. You can be slow or fast on both sides. It all depends on how you drive.

[ghorrah]

do wat u think is more fun. i like drifting,so i'll do it ( drifting doesn't wear out the front brakes for when u really need 'em)