FF Drift...help, newbie and FF, uh oh

[kaneda]

Originally posted by CrazyHawaiian
Well I completely disagree. Last time I checked, drifting is maintaining a controlled slide in an oversteered state through multiple turns. It has nothing to do with what type of car is used, and everything to do with driver skill. So you think that because FF cant generate oversteer with throttle its impossible to keep them in an oversteered state? Well you're wrong. I've seen it done and its not all handbrake action either. I have seen FF battle FR on the local mountain, and the FF driver was able to maintain oversteer through the course, and he did have a racing line, and guess what? He also BEAT alot of the FR guys. Why did this happen? It wasnt because he was driving FF. Its because the driver had SKILL. The definition of drifting itself has nothing to with what type of drivetrain the car has. What is comes down to is skill. If the driver has enough skill to control the car in an oversteered state, then thats drifting. By your definition, if the Drift King himself got out of his RWD car and stepped into a FF and started sliding, he wouldn't be drifting. Does that sound right to you? I'm not saying FF is the BEST thing out there, but I'm sick of the FF guys being dissed because FR guys think their drivetrain layout is superior. Get off the high horse already.

1. you're right, drifting is the maintaining of a controlled slide through the duration of a course or multiple turns. fwds have trouble doing this because you have to generate massive amounts of momentum to keep yourself sliding around a corner without the rear tires biting. this is also why fwds are limited to smaller turns than rwd.

2. it has a lot to do with the drive train used. as i said before, every type has it's limitations, fwds don't have the capacity to control their rear tires like rwds do. in essence, anything that can't spin it's rear tires at a drivers whim, can't drift. why do you think no one in any major drift circuit uses a fwd? do you think ken nomura could drive as well as he does in a civic? he couldn't and wouldn't, because he wouldn't be able to control the back of his car. the fundamental advantage the seperates fwd from rwd is that rwds can dial in over and under steer at a moments notice and any racing driver will tell you this.

3. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A FRONT WHEEL DRIVE TO MAINTAIN ANY KIND OF CONSTANT STATE OF OVERSTEER. as i keep saying, if you can't control your rear tires, you can't maintain oversteer. a rwd can maintain oversteer indefinently, you could drift around in a circle for as long as the tires hold up. a fwd couldn't even make a complete circle before the rear wheels dug back in. that has nothing to do with skill, it's the vehicles limits.

4. did you ever stop to think that maybe those rwd competitors on the mountain weren't that great?

have you ever seen grip video vol. 2? there's a hawaiian guy in a white boro rps13 that couldn't drift for shat. he kept running off track, he constantly spun out, he hit the barrier a few times, he only managed to maintain a slide 2-3 times on the whole video. but there were two guys, one in a sentra, the other a focus, that went out and slid around a decreasing radius hair pin, and were sliding pretty well. but the one thing you'll notice every time they went out, is that they lost momentum at the corner exit. why? because their rear tires weren't sliding, they'd bite in halfway through and immediately slow the car. so were they drifting? no, they couldn't maintain oversteer, all because of the rear tires. it has nothing to do with skill at that point, it's the car you're driving that's keeping you from sliding. you should never have to fight a car to keep it sliding.

5. i never tried to define drifting, that was all you.

6. i doubt the drift king would try to drift a fwd. he knows as well as we ALL do that fwds are limited and if he tried he'd make a few corners before he lost all momebntum or came to a corner that was too large for a fwd to drift. why do you think you never see him "drift" in a fwd? i've seen him drift ae86s, fc3s', fd3s', s13s, rps13s, s14s, s15s, imprezas, lancers, altezzas, etc., but i've never seen him drift a single fwd. was there an integra, civic or accord type r in drift bible? no. why? because he knows they can't drift. again, it's not skill, it's the vehicle.

7. it's not that fr guys are insulting you, it's just that you guys want to have your cake and eat it too. you won't accept your cars limitations. you'll chase us around in circles and argue all the time, always trying to push this argument, but in the end we both know that you can't drift. it's like you see it as a personal attack on your level of skill or your competency to build your car. it's not. it's not that i'm trying to say that ff sucks, it's just not good in this specific application. fwds are good for other things, grip driving, they're decent in drag racing, rally driving, they just suck for drifting.

the bottom line is, rwd is the best platform for drifting and just because your car is traveling sideways doesn't mean your car is capable of drifting.

[CrazyHawaiian]

Ok first of all, I drive a RWD car. So I'm not defending the FF's because I take this as a personal attack. The fact of the matter is that I HAVE SEEN WITH MY OWN EYES a FF drifting and its getting really old when people WHO HAVE NEVER SEEN IT DONE RIGHT come on here dissing them. Just because you haven't seen it does not mean its impossible! People said the same stuff about domestic cars!! I totally agree that RWD is an advantage because you can generate oversteer with throttle, but does that mean FF's cant drift? No! Do you think throttle is the only way to generate oversteer? The correct statement would be "Its impossible for a FF to maintain a constant state of oversteer IN ONE DIRECTION", but if the driver has skill and he's drifting a tight course, he can use weight transfer and other techniques to maintain a constant state of oversteer through a roadcourse. Believe me there are a BUNCH of different ways to generate oversteer, and this is how the FF guys do it. I agree that in todays US 'competitions', an FF would not be able to hang simply because of the types of tracks you guys use. FF can't do long sweeping turns like half of the oval at Irwindale. But on a real roadcourse, with multiple turns, FF can get it done, I've seen it with my own eyes. I've even seen FF chokudori a straightaway. No I didnt watch Grip Video Volume 2, but guess what I WAS THERE THAT DAY, and that guy driving that Sentra is Kyle Arai. The Sentra was his daily driver (his Civic was broken), and very underpowered (completely stock), so thats why he was loosing speed on the exits. Look for him DRIFTING a red box civic with a B16. This is the same guy that won 'Best Show' at the Falken Drift Showoff 2003 in Hawaii because the JAPAN judges were very impressed that his FF COULD KEEP UP WITH THE FR's WHILE DRIFTING. Also, that guy in the white S13 in Grip Volume 2 is actually pretty good, but he was just having a bad day that day. Same thing happened to me in 360 Video volume 6 (had a bad day that day). And just to let you guys know, FF is competing in the D1 in Japan. But they do not get scored as high because FR has the advantage stated above making them BETTER SUITED for drifting. But does that mean FF can't drift? NOPE! Give up the elite attitude already and let those FF guys have their fun. Its so junk to see all this negativity every time the subject is brought up.

[hachi_drifter]

ok you two. I think that both of you gave very good arguments to bothsides of your views. Now maybe we should bury this crap. This topic has come up many times and has been discussed many times to only have the same conclusion. Two sides who do not like eachother. Now I don't think that it has to be this way all the time. Now both of you kiss and make up ok.

[kaneda]

if you're going to just say, "well, it can drift but only if the corners are small enough", then by that logic, as long as the conditions are right, i could win a drift competition using a skateboard. if you're going to say that a car can drift, then said car should be able to drift in any situation, any track, any parking lot, whether it's wet, dry, icy, the car should be able to drift. otherwise, you're just out having a little fun and trying to keep up with REAL drift cars.

this argument isn't whether you can generate oversteer, oversteer doesn't constitute drifting, it's whether or not you can maintain that oversteer and keep it going for an entire course. that is the main goal of all drifters, to be able to drift an entire course, maintain a racing line and do it all while oversteering. a fwd cannot maintain oversteer indefenentily, it's physically impossible. it doesn't matter what you do, eventually you're going to lose momentum and those rear tires are going to bite and slow you right back down. this is one of the reasons that the ff platform is so popular with manufacturers, BECAUSE IT'S SAFE. the last thing manufacturers want is people oversteering and crashing all the time, it makes there cars look unsafe. if you get sideways in an ff, they know that the car will almost immediately turn itself back to heading straight.

driving around doing manji "drifts" in a civic all over a race track to keep your car sliding isn't drifting. that's just throwing your weight around to make it seem like you're drifting. all you're really doing is throwing the car in one direction and then throwing it the other way before the rear tires get a chance to bite, NOT DRIFTING. in a rwd, you can hold oversteer any which way you want, you step the back out and it keeps going, you either hold it and drift, or you spin or hit the brakes and try to slow down. that's what you need to drift. if the rear catches itself every time, then your car cannot drift. because it cannot maintain oversteer.

and why are you putting competition in quotations? what, just because a ff can't "drift" a high-banked corner it's not a real competition? *

kyle won an honorable mention from the judges because they were impressed that he did as well as he did driving such a limited platform, not because he was keeping up with the rwds. if he was keeping up with them and a fwd can "drift" just as well, then why didn't the judges hand him the overall victory? i'll tell you why, because he wasn't really drifting, he nailed some corners just right, got some good angles and impressed the judges. but he wasn't drifting. if the judges thought he was drifting, he would have won.

you will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER, see a front wheel drive car win a competition against a rear wheel drive or all wheel drive competitor, BECAUSE THEY'RE AREN'T DRIFTING. drifting is a contest of ones ability to maintain oversteer through a course, not one's ability to slide around 1 or 2 corners.

if fwds are so great and are just as good at drifting, then why don't you see d1 drivers using them? why spend $20,000 on a used s15 if you can buy a crx for $1000 and drift that instead? because fwds can't drift. d1 drivers know this. i know this. drifters know this. we all know this. and deep down, you know this.

the bottom line is:

FRONT WHEEL DRIVE CARS CANNOT MAINTAIN OVERSTEER AND THEREFORE, THEY CAN'T DRIFT

you're right again, ff should be able to have their fun. if they want to get sideways, go ahead. i go out and hit gravel roads sometimes just so i can slide around. but don't try to tell me they can drift.

*i use drift in quotes because i'm refering to ff and it's inability to actually drift.

[kaneda]

Originally posted by hachi_drifter
ok you two. I think that both of you gave very good arguments to bothsides of your views. Now maybe we should bury this crap. This topic has come up many times and has been discussed many times to only have the same conclusion. Two sides who do not like eachother. Now I don't think that it has to be this way all the time. Now both of you kiss and make up ok.

sorry, i didn't catch this, i was writing my response when you posted.

[Rooney]

Will you be my friend?

[CrazyHawaiian]

Ok here's what it comes down to brah. For the most part, all your mainland competitions take place in a wide open space with long sweeping turns (BTW the quotes have nothing to do with FF/FR but more to do with the humor I find in your track layouts). Other portions of the course are then laid out with cones and K-barriers. In this situation I agree that FF will not be able to maintain oversteer on the big sweeping turns, and thus they will never win or look as good as the FR guys. Sucks to be FF at Irwindale. But down here in Hawaii we have a very tight shortcourse originally designed for motorcycle racing (with walls and stuff). What it comes down to is that we both drift different types of tracks. All your tracks are long sweeping turns, our track down here has very sharp turns and a straightaway to dori. On the type of track you guys drift on, FF will not do good because the long sweeping turns pronounce the FF drivetrains disadvantage. On the type of course we drift on, FF can do good. The turns are tight enough where the FF can enter and exit the turns at reasonable speeds (actually insane entry speeds). On the straight portions EVERYONE choku's, even the FF. So what I'm trying to say is, even though you dont see FF winning your mainland US competitions, that dosnt mean FF's cant drift. In other parts of the world, FF's are drifting fine. Dont remember the event or driver name, but in 2003 there was a Drift Competition on the East Coast, and a FF driver in a Civic placed 2nd, beating out alot of FR's. You can say whatever you want about those FR driver's abilities, but the fact of the matter is that the FF guy drifted better than them. Same thing when you talk about FF guys here in Hawaii beating FR's on the local mountains. You can say whatever you want about those FR driver's abilities, but the FF driver still drifted better than them. While it may feel manly to say 'if you're going to say that a car can drift, then said car should be able to drift in any situation', what you forget about it that its not the 'car' drifting, its the driver. The drivers skill will determine weather or not the car is going to drift, not the drivetrain layout. Sure on a long sweeping turns FF cant hold the entire turn. Yes I consider that a disadvantage. But if you go up to the local mountain and some crazy *Censored**Censored**Censored* FF drifter passes you going sideways 70 mph drifting every turn and choku'ing the straights, and you cant catch up to him or keep up, how can you say he wasn't drifting? If you ask me, oversteer DOES constitute drifting. You're either oversteering meaning your drifting, or your gripping meaning your not drifting, or your understeering meaning your crashing. How long you can maintain oversteer on certain types of turns has nothing to do with the definition of drifting. Sure he didnt drift THAT turn nice, but he can still drift. Remember that drifting is a style sport. There is no minimum speed you have to be going, and no minimum distance you have to slide to be considered drifting. As long as you are controlling the car in an oversteered state, you are drifting. Just to let you know, I was at the Drift Showoff and I know Kyle was given an honorable mention because he did a couple of insane runs and the judges were impressed that he was able to match the FR's speed. Unfortunately none of those rounds counted in the competition because that was during the practice runs. He made a few mistakes in the actual competition, and THATS why he didnt place. It could happen to any drifter, FF or FR, and I've had by bad days too. But he showed everyone that FF can drift too, and I think he deserved that award.

Have a nice day.

P.S. there ARE FF's in the D1.

[kaneda]

Originally posted by Rooney
Will you be my friend?

yes

[nissanguy_24]

This was posted by kaneda..
<b> all you're really doing is throwing the car in one direction and then throwing it the other way before the rear tires get a chance to bite, NOT DRIFTING.
</b>

ah why is that not drifting? throwing your car into oversteer then back the other way especialy on a straight is one of the harder drifting techniques.

Is your definition of drifting just spinning the tires with the throttle? then counter steering? doesnt sound that impressive, hell i saw a nascar driver do that at low speeds.

Hell a FF has some advantages over a FR, a FF can actualy accelerate with out rear traction! no FR car can really do that. not exactly a easy thing to learn to drift with but i believe it to be entirely possible. Perhaps FF drive drifting isnt as easy to do or as popular or even as stylish, But theres alot of really poor FR drivers who dont drift well and people still conisder it drifting, just not well.

With enough skill you can drift the FF. Just takes different techniques and abilitys, Because we lack them, and those with them and know them are rare, doesnt mean it cant be done. Besides discounting a opponent because of there car with out watching them first is one of the worse mistakes you can make. In any form of motorsports.

Yeah your right, most guys dont drift FFs, most guys also dont drift Automatics or Domestics. but it can be done. Remember there was a point when most guys didnt drift Silvias, lol someone had to be the first right? then someone had to be the first to do it well.

Your deffinition of drifting is an interesting one and may be the cause of your arguement, but if thats the case then your just argueing symantics. My deffiniton of drifting is:

"Any time a car is in a Controled oversteer posture, usualy requiring counter steering to control it."

I already mentioned i was told you couldnt drift a Automatic, all you can do is "*Censored**Censored**Censored* drag" with the handbrake, they say the same thing to Front wheel drive vehichles. But recently i have been able to intiate a drift using the foot brake at highspeed. a Front wheel drive car can do the exact same thing i am. He wont be able to maintain his wheels spinning. but where im drifting thats not a huge issue because if you want to keep drifitng you will need to flip it around for the next turn. its a big S turn.

But i agree about this subject, its okay to prefer a rear wheel drive, as i do. but theres no need to be negative about it. if anything lets challange the FF drive drivers to get better, i want to see at least one guy drift one very well in this area.

[kaneda]

key words:

He wont be able to maintain his wheels spinning. but where im drifting thats not a huge issue because if you want to keep drifitng you will need to flip it around for the next turn. its a big S turn.

i've said the same thing for the last few posts, an ff may be able to slide through certain corners. the only thing that's different - that doesn't mean it's drifting.

With enough skill you can drift the FF. Just takes different techniques and abilitys, Because we lack them, and those with them and know them are rare, doesnt mean it cant be done. Besides discounting a opponent because of there car with out watching them first is one of the worse mistakes you can make. In any form of motorsports.

Yeah your right, most guys dont drift FFs, most guys also dont drift Automatics or Domestics. but it can be done. Remember there was a point when most guys didnt drift Silvias, lol someone had to be the first right? then someone had to be the first to do it well.

drifting has been around for over 20 years now, if it were possible to actually drift an ff, then someone would have done it, mastered it, wone some competitions doing it and you'd have seen it on tape or in person by now. was there a time when people said you couldn't drift a domestic or drift auto? yes, but the difference is, these claims were unfounded. i've never seen anyone successfully drift in an fwd, if you look at the design, it shows that it's impossible. a fwd car has to steer, grip, and accelerate all with the front tires, while there's relatively no control over the rear tires. that makes drifting impossible. you can powerslide all day, but for an ff, drifting is off limits.

[nissanguy_24]

Perhaps your problem is you have not told us your definition of drifting. Because admitting a FWD car can drift, but cant drift, its not clear.

[Menchi]

dude, your pretty closed minded, FF racing technique, is different than FR racing, obviously but you consider FR drift technique the only drift technique. it's not, accept it. you obviously come from a different school of thought, I have heard it before, and even believed it at one point because that is what I was told, FF cars can only powerslide, but I would hardly call what I have seen some FF cars do just a powerslide, and if you don't believe me search the forum, there is alot of footage of FF drifters here. it's like saying midgets can't run because the have short legs, even though, they are going about the same speed as you walking, it is running. sorry to any midget drifters out there

[nissanguy_24]

midget drifters would have much better power to weight ratio what with there short size and all.

[Menchi]

I had one more post to get 100 posts, so this is it, and nissan guy, you forgot to take into account the books they sit on to see over the dash and the big shoes necessary to reach the pedal

[kaneda]

----

my definition of drifting:

drifting is the maintaining of a controlled skid through the use of throttle, braking, clutch control, use of weight shift, etc., where the driver balances the car on it's tires/suspensions limits of adhesion for the purpose of style and/or speed, through a corners entry, apex and exit and while holding some form of a racing line;

or the maintaining of a controlled skid on the limits of tire/suspension adhesion, for most of the duration of a straight piece of road or track (such as the straight at irwindale, sugo, ebisu, autopolis, etc.); or the maintaining of a controlled skid on the limits of tire/suspension adhesion, through the duration of a course of some type, for the purpose of speed and/or style, and while following some form of a racing line;

or the act of sliding a car sideways, with a loss of traction in the rear/all of the wheels, while steering with the front wheels, for the purpose of speed and/or style, while following some form of a racing line.

----

you guys don't seem to realize the difference between assdragging and drifting. the key that seperates drifting from just being oversteer, is the sliding aspect. oversteer is simply:

"the situation that occurs in cornering when the rear of
a vehicle tends to skid before the front"

drifting is controlling oversteer and using it to slide through a corner. if you just say "oversteer is drifting", then by that definition, anything can drift as long as the front loses traction before the back, even if it's only for a second. it doesn't even have to slide necessarily, it just has to lose a bit of traction.

you all seem to use a very broad definition of drifting (drifting=sideways), to me, drifting isn't just going sideways. you have to slide the rear of your car throughout the entire corner, and you have to slide it, you can't just drag the back of the car around and say you were drifting. when you get in a camaro, or a 240, an mr2, etc., when you go into a corner, you can initiate a oversteer, turn it into a slide and drift through a corner. this is something that is utterly impossible for fwds.

in a fwd, when you enter the corner and oversteer (IF you can oversteer, fwd is prone to understeer), you try to intiate the slide and the back of the car resists; it chirps, it tries to dig into the road, the car fights you until you straighten it out. you are not drifting the car, you're simply dragging the rear end through a corner, and praying that you carried enough speed to keep the car traveling through the whole corner. if the rear of the car is resisting the motion, you're not drifting. you're assdragging.

sliding is the key. fwds don't slide. when you slide, you maintain and control oversteer, not throw your weight around the whole track so that the back of your car drags across the ground and you appear to be drifting, when in reality, the car DOES have traction and all you're doing is fighting it.