FF Drift...help, newbie and FF, uh oh

[kaneda]

http://www.automotiveforums.com/t108615.html

btw, here's the guy who won that contest in a civic

[HX-50]

Is it just me or does that civic sound like a weed eater? anyways again as a FF driver i can say that kaneda is right on this one, i can get my car into a drift, however in a rwd car the drift can be controlled by applying more throttle, where a fwd car you would have to either brake or pull the e-brake to bring the car around more. This is the downfall of drifting in a ff car, because to sustain any momentum through a turn you have to come into a corner very hot. I drive a FF car and yes i can get it to drift in low speed corners and occasionally in a large parking lot i'll take it sideways and have fun. So basically i think this argument can be settled by saying that yes a FF car can drift, but it cannot sustain a drift without losing speed.

[kaneda]

yeah, the civic did sound like a weed eater, all he did the whole time was speed into corners, pull the e-brake and slam on the throttle. it's more like he was doing donuts than actually drifting.

[Menchi]

"drifting is controlling oversteer and using it to slide through a corner." you can do this with an FF car, it IS possible to control the drift angles of an FF drift by either brakeing more or using the E-brake, just the same as the FR guys, anyway, I don't see anything in your definition that would exclude FF vehical, and I don't think you understand the full potential of FF drifting. so I'ma stop here, accept it if you want if you don't, it's your loss.


anyway it sounds like you know what your talking about (well besides the whole FF issue) and the more people we have like that around here the better, I hope to here your opinion on other threads later on.

[Drift For Food]

I like Menchi's post. fwd and rwd racing styles are different.

So, why can't fwd and rwd drifting styles be different?

Sure, the physics is different, and each car has abilities the other does not as well as disadvantages the other does not.

Oddly, in the simple sense, drivetrain difference should have no relation to the concept of drifting. In essence a rolling car with no engine could drift...but only to an extent(duration).

Drift in my mind is a form of controled driving other than grip. The key points are controlled and it not being grip. Beyond that, you really can't define it. Each car will vary in technique. Even the same car with a slightly different suspension setup will drift differently.

I guess it really comes down to what rules you follow. If you confine the allowable forms or techniques of drifting to the abilities only capable by rwd cars, I guess you discriminate fwd cars.

What would you call a rwd car that say for 80% of the time the tires are never gripping the road?

What would you call a fwd car that for 80% of the time the tires are never gripping the road?

It's not grip driving. It's purely the manipulation of the car around a track or road course in which all 4 wheels are in a perpetual state of slide for the majority of the course.

Does it matter HOW it's done?

I didn't tell you how it was achieved, rather that it just was.

Are specific techniques that important?

Would I have to follow specific preset techniques to even have it considered drifting?

Is it concidered drift?

If so, just the rwd? Why not the fwd?

If not, what is it?

If I don't slide around a corner in a nice smooth arc with my tail hung way out, am I not drifting? Even if I control the exactly the way I want, follow the exact line I want, and am not grip driving?

Ok, thats a lot of questions, but it gets you thinking.

Also, between fwd and rwd, there are a lot of instances where both are actually doing the same thing to drift. Braking drift for example. Feint as well. E-brake. However, the physical design will modify what needs to be done to keep the car drifting.

Even so, at instances, you still do the same thing. A rwd with understeer may need a little help keeping the rear end out. What do you do? You pull the e-brake. Funny, a fwd car does that too...interesting. Ok braking drifting. You come into a corner fast, brake hard, and steering in. The rear end slides out, and you begin to drift. Funny, fwd cars work the same way. E-brake, the same. Feint, the same. In fact, up until you give a rwd throttle, fwds act exactly the same.

Now ok, I can't just give it gas and follow through the rest fo the corner with a fwd. This is the change in techniques. Instead, you use the e-brake to keep the rear end out. You could actually modify a fwd to allow you to actually go around a corner with the rear hung out. Create it with strong front grip and low grip in the back. The rear would lose traction and hang out even if the front grips. Now you're powersliding, lol. This may be bit of an openminded concept of powersliding. Still it could be maintained through the entire corner under throttle. Even more, you could push the car hard enough to run the front at its limit creating a 4 wheel non-grip situation. Drift?

Just my thoughts.

[Menchi]

word

[kaneda]

So, why can't fwd and rwd drifting styles be different?

becaue fwd cannot actually drift, they can't hold a slide for more than a few seconds, rwd can maintain a slide indefinently as long as the tires are in good shape.

Oddly, in the simple sense, drivetrain difference should have no relation to the concept of drifting. In essence a rolling car with no engine could drift...but only to an extent(duration).

that would be oversteer, not drifting. drifting is much more than just simple oversteer.

What would you call a rwd car that say for 80% of the time the tires are never gripping the road?

drifting.

What would you call a fwd car that for 80% of the time the tires are never gripping the road?

drifting - if it were possible. the inherent nature of the fwd platform causes the rear wheels to always seek and maintain grip. this is the same problem with drifting full time awd cars, too much grip.

It's not grip driving. It's purely the manipulation of the car around a track or road course in which all 4 wheels are in a perpetual state of slide for the majority of the course.

exactly, but a fwd can't lose the majority of it's grip so it can't travel around a road course while maintaining a slide (we'll ignore straightaways, it's relatively pointless to mani down a straight anyway unless you're setting up for a corner, it just wastes the tires).

Does it matter HOW it's done?

to a certain degree, yes it does. this is what seperates drifting from oversteer.

If I don't slide around a corner in a nice smooth arc with my tail hung way out, am I not drifting? Even if I control the exactly the way I want, follow the exact line I want, and am not grip driving?

that's grip driving.

Also, between fwd and rwd, there are a lot of instances where both are actually doing the same thing to drift. Braking drift for example. Feint as well. E-brake. However, the physical design will modify what needs to be done to keep the car drifting.

the two will behave the same way when initiating a slide, but beyond that, they're completely different. when you feint or manji in a rwd, the car loses traction until you bring it back under control. in a fwd, it only loses some of it's traction, but it's still gripping the road. it's the same for side, and braking as well. fwds do not like to lose grip, it's completely unnatural for the cars design, it fights back until grip is fully restored. a fwd will not drift an entire corner, you can enter with an extremely high rate of speed to clear the whole corner, but it will kill your exit speed.

Even so, at instances, you still do the same thing. A rwd with understeer may need a little help keeping the rear end out. What do you do? You pull the e-brake. Funny, a fwd car does that too...interesting. Ok braking drifting. You come into a corner fast, brake hard, and steering in. The rear end slides out, and you begin to drift. Funny, fwd cars work the same way. E-brake, the same. Feint, the same. In fact, up until you give a rwd throttle, fwds act exactly the same.

the difference is, fwds will oversteer for a few seconds and you may experience actual drift, but you still can't keep the rear tires from regaining grip. they're deadweight. it's like drifting with a plow on the back of your car, you might get sideways for a few seconds but eventually, it's going to grab and straighten out.

Now ok, I can't just give it gas and follow through the rest fo the corner with a fwd. This is the change in techniques. Instead, you use the e-brake to keep the rear end out. You could actually modify a fwd to allow you to actually go around a corner with the rear hung out. Create it with strong front grip and low grip in the back. The rear would lose traction and hang out even if the front grips. Now you're powersliding, lol. This may be bit of an openminded concept of powersliding. Still it could be maintained through the entire corner under throttle. Even more, you could push the car hard enough to run the front at its limit creating a 4 wheel non-grip situation. Drift?

it would not be drifting, to drift you have to eliminate grip in the rear of the car completely. you've merely reduced it. the car is still holding the road, it's just not doing it that well. you're not drifting or sliding, you're dragging the rear of the car through the corner.

[Drift For Food]

"So, why can't fwd and rwd drifting styles be different?

becaue fwd cannot actually drift, they can't hold a slide for more than a few seconds, rwd can maintain a slide indefinently as long as the tires are in good shape."

So the concept of drift is time dependent. To me time is unimportant.


"Oddly, in the simple sense, drivetrain difference should have no relation to the concept of drifting. In essence a rolling car with no engine could drift...but only to an extent(duration).

that would be oversteer, not drifting. drifting is much more than just simple oversteer."

What if I'm not even turning into the corner? If I follow through a full corner with a fwd without ever having the front tires towards the inside of the corner would you call that oversteer. An example would be to feint and then a 4 wheel slide through the whole corner say with the front tires centered the whole time. Any adjustments would be slight braking to bring the rear out a hair more or slight throttle to bring the front out a hair more.


"If I don't slide around a corner in a nice smooth arc with my tail hung way out, am I not drifting? Even if I control the exactly the way I want, follow the exact line I want, and am not grip driving?

that's grip driving."

I mentioned I wasn't grip driving. All 4 tires are in a state of kinetic friction, i.e. sliding. What is that called? Grip?


"Also, between fwd and rwd, there are a lot of instances where both are actually doing the same thing to drift. Braking drift for example. Feint as well. E-brake. However, the physical design will modify what needs to be done to keep the car drifting.

the two will behave the same way when initiating a slide, but beyond that, they're completely different. when you feint or manji in a rwd, the car loses traction until you bring it back under control. in a fwd, it only loses some of it's traction, but it's still gripping the road. it's the same for side, and braking as well. fwds do not like to lose grip, it's completely unnatural for the cars design, it fights back until grip is fully restored. a fwd will not drift an entire corner, you can enter with an extremely high rate of speed to clear the whole corner, but it will kill your exit speed."

Kill exit speed, true. Still car setup would change this. It would go towards your oversteer idea though. Still if all 4 tires are sliding, is it not drift? Something similar would be 4wd cars. However, instead of power to the rear, a lower traction tire is used and/or e-brake.


"Now ok, I can't just give it gas and follow through the rest fo the corner with a fwd. This is the change in techniques. Instead, you use the e-brake to keep the rear end out. You could actually modify a fwd to allow you to actually go around a corner with the rear hung out. Create it with strong front grip and low grip in the back. The rear would lose traction and hang out even if the front grips. Now you're powersliding, lol. This may be bit of an openminded concept of powersliding. Still it could be maintained through the entire corner under throttle. Even more, you could push the car hard enough to run the front at its limit creating a 4 wheel non-grip situation. Drift?

it would not be drifting, to drift you have to eliminate grip in the rear of the car completely. you've merely reduced it. the car is still holding the road, it's just not doing it that well. you're not drifting or sliding, you're dragging the rear of the car through the corner."

Even with a rwd car, you are not "eliminating" grip. You are simply reducing it. You change the friction from static(high) to kinetic(low). The only difference is that you gain some forwad momentum towards the front of the car from the spinning tire. Sure this forward momentum allows you to maintain speed through and out of the corner. But is it necessary to constitute the definition of drift? Rwd cars are unstable. The rear always wants to overtake the front. Is this chaotic nature required to be declared as a drift?


So what elements are needed to consider a car driving characteristic be called a drift?

Is it physical orientation?

Both a fwd and rwd can "look" the same through a corner. They can both have the same angle and line. Sure, the fwd will come out far slower because the angle and line was maintained through a differenet method, primarly braking and e-brake.

Is 4 wheel loss of traction required?

A fwd car have a lose of traction in all 4 wheels around a corner, same as a rwd.

Are you required to be able to maintain a swung out rear end through the entire corner while under throttle?

A rwd can do this easily. A fwd can too, but the setup would have to be designed for it, high front traction, low rear traction. Even under throttle, the rear end will swing and stay out around a corner.

Understeer versus drift, doesn't drifting use understeer anyways?

A rwd can have oversteer if setup that way(mr2 for example). While drifting, you use steering to control the drift. You can even let off the throttle and maintain a slide through steering, useful if you're too fast or the corner tightens. Is this still drifting? It's oversteer and no throttle. Is it still drifting just because it's a rwd car? Would you say the car stopped drifting at that moment event though the car still is in a 4 wheel slide, still sideways, and still going around the corner in a controlled manner? If so, why can't a fwd sliding in the same manner be called drifting? Or is it just oversteer?

You like my bullets lol.

[Drift For Food]

^I should start writing books for how much I type, lol.^

[kaneda]

ARRRGGH!

So the concept of drift is time dependent. To me time is unimportant.

time is very important, it's one of the factors that seperates oversteer from drifting. if you just oversteer through a corner and then correct and keep driving, it doesn't necessarily mean you can drift

What if I'm not even turning into the corner? If I follow through a full corner with a fwd without ever having the front tires towards the inside of the corner would you call that oversteer. An example would be to feint and then a 4 wheel slide through the whole corner say with the front tires centered the whole time. Any adjustments would be slight braking to bring the rear out a hair more or slight throttle to bring the front out a hair more.

I mentioned I wasn't grip driving. All 4 tires are in a state of kinetic friction, i.e. sliding. What is that called? Grip?

and how would you manage this? the rear tires won't let you lose enough grip to initiate a 4 wheel drift. even if you could, the lack of movement in rear tires would immediately kill the motion.

Kill exit speed, true. Still car setup would change this. It would go towards your oversteer idea though. Still if all 4 tires are sliding, is it not drift? Something similar would be 4wd cars. However, instead of power to the rear, a lower traction tire is used and/or e-brake.

i never said awd can't drift, i said they have trouble drifting. and it's not the same, in an awd with enough speed you can 4 wheel drift; you have control over the rear tires and can therefore overpower the back and get them to lose traction.

Even with a rwd car, you are not "eliminating" grip. You are simply reducing it. You change the friction from static(high) to kinetic(low). The only difference is that you gain some forwad momentum towards the front of the car from the spinning tire. Sure this forward momentum allows you to maintain speed through and out of the corner. But is it necessary to constitute the definition of drift? Rwd cars are unstable. The rear always wants to overtake the front. Is this chaotic nature required to be declared as a drift?

i don't mean absolutely eliminating grip, that would be impossible, doing so would violate the laws of thermodynamics. you're always going to have friction and friction equals grip. it is necessary to constitute the definition of drift, this unstability is the whole point of the entire sport. if it weren't for "this chaotic nature", then it would not be drifting, it would be grip driving.

So what elements are needed to consider a car driving characteristic be called a drift?

Is it physical orientation?

no, it's the ability to exceed the cars slip angle and slide for the duration of a corner without traction. something which cannot be accomplished by a fwd.

Both a fwd and rwd can "look" the same through a corner. They can both have the same angle and line. Sure, the fwd will come out far slower because the angle and line was maintained through a differenet method, primarly braking and e-brake.

the fwd will come out slower, because it hasn't actually drifted around the corner. if it had, it wouldn't have lost so much speed on it's exit, the reason it didn't drift the corner is because grip was still present. a fwd may have the appearance of drifting, but that still doesn't mean it actually did it.

Is 4 wheel loss of traction required?

A fwd car have a lose of traction in all 4 wheels around a corner, same as a rwd.

yes, for a front wheel drive to drift it would require all 4 wheels to lose traction and stay that way. a fwd can lose traction at all 4 corners, but it can't maintain it's loss of grip, that's what i've been trying to get at

Are you required to be able to maintain a swung out rear end through the entire corner while under throttle?

somewhat, in order to drift, you need to lose traction and swing the rear end through a corner, you don't necessarily have to use throttle, but time has shown that's the best way. drifting is not a contest of how much oversteer you can generate, it's a contest of ones ability to control their car on the absolue limits of adhesion, since fwds never have that absolute loss, they can't drift

A rwd can do this easily. A fwd can too, but the setup would have to be designed for it, high front traction, low rear traction. Even under throttle, the rear end will swing and stay out around a corner.

no, a fwd can't. you can do what ever you want, but the fact still stands: you can't control the rear of the car, it will always regain the majority of it's traction and stop you from sliding.

Understeer versus drift, doesn't drifting use understeer anyways?

yes, drifting uses both over and understeer to accomplish the goal of maintaining a constant slide

A rwd can have oversteer if setup that way(mr2 for example). While drifting, you use steering to control the drift. You can even let off the throttle and maintain a slide through steering, useful if you're too fast or the corner tightens. Is this still drifting? It's oversteer and no throttle. Is it still drifting just because it's a rwd car? Would you say the car stopped drifting at that moment event though the car still is in a 4 wheel slide, still sideways, and still going around the corner in a controlled manner? If so, why can't a fwd sliding in the same manner be called drifting? Or is it just oversteer?

it's drifting if the rear of the car isn't gripping the road. there are a lot of cars that can steer at full throttle while drifting, the ae86, the mr2, the nsx, how you're steering through the corner has nothing to do with it. drifting is about what those rear tires are doing while you're going through the corner. a fwd attempting to do the same thing, wouldn't be drifting. there's not loss of adhesion, the car's just dragging it's arse looking for grip.

it's not how the car looks, it's what the car is doing. look at the rear tires:

are they sliding?
then you're drifting.

are they fighting to grip the road?
then you're not drifting, you're assdragging.

You like my bullets lol.

lol, yeah. this is getting so long it's hard to type responses!

[Ghost of Duluth]

Alright anyone that says that FF cannot drift must not have read Kaneda's definition of a drift. If you didn't i'll repeat it for you.

"or the act of sliding a car sideways, with a loss of traction in the rear/all of the wheels, while steering with the front wheels, for the purpose of speed and/or style, while following some form of a racing line".

So in his own words he stated right there that a FF can drift. Cause that civic and any other FF's that I see are losing traction in the rear (and sometimes all 4) and steering with the front wheels while following a line. So in your own words you say a FF can drift. So give it up.

For the last time, since this has gone around the block like the New kids, ANY automobile can drift. A Drift is a controlled slide, nothing more, nothing less. FF can do it, Fr can do it, MR can do it, heck even Bicycles can do it. Matter of fact, Snow can do it. If it has wheels, you can drift it. How it looks is a different story. You can call it what you like but if it slides and can be controlled (whether by the E-brake or the gas) it can Drift. Purists don't like FF Drifting, that's fine but to be so audacious as to say they can't is stupid.

So if you don't like it, don't do it. I wouldn't Drift a FF but with practice I COULD! The Crazy Hawaiian is absolutely right. Kaneda, you are wrong about a FF not being able to Drift, you just don't agree with it. So be a man and admit that. It's ok not to like it but to say that they can't because you DON'T like it is hypocritical.

[kaneda]

oversteer is a loss of traction. drift is the act of maintaing loss of traction, like i've said for the last 2 pages, it's not possible, at least for more than a few seconds, not long enough for a fwd to slide through a corner.

a more appropriate phrase would be "any vechicle can oversteer". actually anything can oversteer, like i said before, if you use that defintion then i can drift with a deck of cards.

if anything, i don't agree with you guys opinion of whether or not a fwd can lose grip in the rear. if i'm wrong, then prove it. by you guys' definition of drift, there is no disadvantage or advantage between fwds and rwds in drifting. according to you, a fwd has 50/50 chance of winning a professionaly judged contest against a rwd, on any surface and any track. show me one video where a front wheel drive has maintained a loss of traction throughout an entire track, going the entire way without the rear tires gripping the road.

how is it hypocritcal for a fwd to not drift?

[Ghost of Duluth]

I didn't say they are on the same playing field. I said they can drift. Plain and simple. And your definition of a Drift says that as well.

That's what is hypocritical. Read your own words.

[kaneda]

i also said a fwd can't maintain it's loss of traction.

not hypocritical.

[nissanguy_24]

You said your self they can create oversteer then keep it by shifting its weight back and forward! thats a drift!!! its not spinning the tires with throttle, but its still drifting.

Weight transfer techniques are among the most advanced. Which is why its not as easy to drift a FF well, it takes crazy skill and practice.

Haha i agree with craziehawaiian and ghost. these guys know there stuff!