FF Drift...help, newbie and FF, uh oh

[hachi_drifter]

I totally agree with Ghost. I have heard the Ghost preach before and his words have much truth in them. Ghost I think you should put an end to this nonsense and put him in his place. You should have never bring yourslef this low in order to explain these things to him.

[kaneda]

it's not drifting if the rear tires are still gripping the road! oversteer is not drifting! a fwd can oversteer but it cannot drift because the rear tires are still gripping the road! oversteer just means the rear tires are starting to lose grip before the front, DRIFTING, is maintaining a loss of traction and holding it for the duration of a course for the purpose of speed or style, like i keep saying.

you guys don't seem to get the concepts that"

1. oversteer and drifting aren't the same thing
2. oversteer is one of many components of drifting
3. a fwd will always have excessive grip in it's rear tires
4. excessive grip = no dorifto for you!

you can go out, get sideways, power slide, oversteer, etc., all day long, but until you can eliminate grip in the rear wheels IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DRIFT

[nissanguy_24]

Dude you really need to go back to performance school physics 101.

You said it can oversteer but will still have grip

The definiton of oversteer is loosing grip in the rear before the front. <b>Oversteer is by definition a lack of grip.</b> Will it be trying to regain grip? yes! but so do FR cars! its becuase they have tires and thats there job!

[kaneda]

Originally posted by nissanguy_24
Dude you really need to go back to performance school physics 101.

You said it can oversteer but will still have grip

The definiton of oversteer is loosing grip in the rear before the front. Oversteer is by definition a lack of grip. Will it be trying to regain grip? yes! but so do FR cars! its becuase they have tires and thats there job!

the difference is, a rwd will overcome grip, a fwd will always be fighting grip, not because it has tires, but becaue it can't manipulate it's tires.

[kaneda]

and yes, oversteer is loss of grip, but it is not complete loss. it just means the front wheels have more grip then the back. to drift you need to eliminate grip, you do this by oversteer, and then you can use braking, throttle, etc to maintain it. the problem with a fwd, is that it can't control it's back half. all you can do is slow down or try and shift the weight, either way, you're still going to have grip back there and all you're doing is assdragging.

[nissanguy_24]

They overcome it every time the rear comes out. Yes they have to keep fighting it because they cant spin the tires with the throttle Thats why it requires so much skill.

Yes they have to fight it, You have to fight it in any other kind of car too, wether or not they can spin the tires with throttle or not.

[jboss]

C'mon, we have been through this a million times......

FF can be setup so that the rear NEVER has ANY lateral grip without ever sliding either........Take a minute to hear out my thought experiment and decide wheter or not this would be drifting....

Imagine a FF car with the rear wheels replaced with large roolerballs like in your computer mouse. Sure, it might be awfully difficult to control but, you could not only throw the car sideways and keep it there nearly indefinitely but you could also accelrate through a turn while doing it while never *Censored**Censored**Censored* dragging anything at all.

The point of the thought experiment is that ANY car can be setup such that it can drift and accelerate through a turn at the same time. FF do not require anything as extreme as rollerballs for tires, just smaller harder tires and stiffer rear suspension to do this. And, no car ever loses ALL lateral grip not even FR---not even close.

Come take a ride with me in my golf this weekend at the rallycross in pueblo CO or maybe someone else on the board will give you some feedback. Continuous slides including linking of turns is possible with the right setup and driver.

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by kaneda
and yes, oversteer is loss of grip, but it is not complete loss. it just means the front wheels have more grip then the back. to drift you need to eliminate grip, you do this by oversteer, and then you can use braking, throttle, etc to maintain it. the problem with a fwd, is that it can't control it's back half. all you can do is slow down or try and shift the weight, either way, you're still going to have grip back there and all you're doing is assdragging.

You either HAVE grip and the tires stay put, Or you dont have grip and they slide. If they slide its oversteer and they dont have grip.

You have yet to show why a FF cant drift. You have admiited they can drift, but cant drift.. this cryptic sentence is a long way from any kind of data to prove your arguement is anything more then close minded thinking. I am trying to stay away from personal attacks but honestly you sound like those guys who still believe the earth is flat. except your admitting its curves, just still flat.

Your definition of drifting, dispite your previous stated definition seems to be "Spinning the tires via throttle while counter steering in a oversteer condition" is that correct?

there was a guy on here whos sig said "It aint driftin if the tires aint spinning" or something to that effect. That is your belief correct? Aparently that is not the general consensous and sence there is no governing body that dictates what is and what is not drifting that leaves the window pretty wide open. So we must go on what the general population of drifters believe.

This means your best arguement would be<b> "I dont consider it 'real' drifting because the tires arent spinning threw the corner" </b>Of course thats more of a personal opinion, which is fine.. It doesnt really hold up as an arguement because that means any technique where you use the handbrake wouldnt be considered a drift. But it often is. Even the drift king uses it ocasionally in his videos.

having a personal opinion is fine, but you really shouldnt go off on a tangent telling everyone else "what can and cant drift" because thats when you cross the line from having a opinion or thought and needing proof to back up your arguement.

[kaneda]

sorry, just deleted to stop and read jboss'

[Ghost of Duluth]

Um I don't think you get it. If you jerk the E-brake and the rear end comes sideways, hoe in the fook is that still gripping? I don't know where in super weird physics land you live but when you pull the e-brake, stop the rear wheels from spinning and turn the wheel, the car comes around. If you can control that you are DRIFTING!!!!!!!!!! If you can keep the rear end sliding whether it's with gas or brake, it's Drifting man.

If it looks like a Drift, smells like a Drift and feels like a Drift then it sure as crap ain't Gripping.

Good lord man, wake up and smell the Napalm.

WOOOOT Jboss is back. Where you been man?

[jboss]

It looks like that what you NOW saying is that drifting is OVERSTEERING and then MAINTAINING an oversteer condition BY SPINNING the REAR tires......

This couldnt be further from the truth. Even FR drifters dont always have the rear tires spinning to maintain oversteer.

FF drivers simply have one fewer tool in their bag-o-tricks to keep the rear out.

If the rear tires have enough grip such that the motor and front tires cannot generate more forward force than they produce then the car will certainly slow through a turn even at full throttle. A lot of how much force the rear tires produce has to do with the slip angle, size, compound, and rear spring rate.

A FF setup for drifitng should have enough power and grip at the front (and lack of grip at the rear) so that it can still accelerate or at least maintain speed while sliding sideways.

[jboss]

Ghost, Ive been working on my master's thesis....Finishing up the rallycar so i can race this summer. Anyone who hasn't checked it out, you can find details at http://www.bestvwparts.com/forum/vie...a71666eca6955f

I figured checking in on the board would be an amusing study break. And, I was right!!

It makes me not want to come on here anymore.

Anyway, I will concede this FF CAN NOT do doughnuts forward..

That is about the only thing they cant do that resembles drifting.

[kaneda]

what i'm saying is that a fwd has so much rear grip (and will always have too much rear grip), that the back cannot be controlled in the manner that a rear drive can. no matter what you do, those rear tires will always seek grip.

even if you do get the rear to step out, how do you keep it that way through a corner? you can't use throttle because there's nothing to push the car, you can't use braking because it'll slow you down so much you'll stop "driftig" before you clear the corner, what do you do? all you've accomplished is a lot of oversteer, the result of bad driving. that's not drifting

when i say a fwd can do a drift, this is exactly what i mean, a fwd may be able to generate and control a slide for a very brief amount of time. but this amount of time is so miniscule, it's completely and utterly useless when applied to drifting.

when did i say that oversteer was drifting? i've said more than once that's it's only a component of drifting, and the bread and butter of the sport is how long you can hold the car in a slide (call it an "oversteering condition" if you want, i won't) and whether or not you can hold it and follow a racing line throug a race course

you guys are posting too fast, by the time i'm done, there's 4 more posts here

[nissanguy_24]

I think i've made my point.

[kaneda]

i think we've all made our points. all we're doing now is repeating ourselves.