FF Drift...help, newbie and FF, uh oh

[Ghost of Duluth]

You are right to a degree. But a FF can do an excellent job of drifting in the hands of someone who can drive it. This may be a stupid excercise but it's about as close as i can come to showing you what i'm talking about.

Break out the ol GT3, buy a Civic, lighten it all the way up, put all the engine mods on it then stick sims on the back and super slicks on the front. Do all the normal stuff to it and take it out. It is almost what I and Jboss are talking about. If the engine can over power the locking of the e-brake you can drag the rear end around all day. Add weight transfer to that mix and a little feathering of the e-brake and voila, you are drifting, holding speed and controlling the slide. You can steer with the front wheels just like you would in FR and you are hanging the rear out just like in FR. A little more speed on the entry and you can hang with the FR's.

I hate referring to video games to show someone a point but that's about the only way I can think of right now. Granted it's not spinning tires on the rear but it's Drifting.

Folks think that just cause this is Drifting.com that everyone here is going to think FWD cars can't Drift. That is not further from the truth.

[kaneda]

we've argued for the last 3 1/2 pages now and all we've done is repeat ourselves.

you still say fwds can drift, i still say they can't. i've made my point, my proof is in the utter lack of fwd competitors placing in drift contests, it's in all the guys out pulling their e-brakes in civics, it's in all the videos where fwds have tried to drift and failed, it's in all the attempts to drift a fwd that i've witnessed, it's in my own attempts to drift a fwd, it's in my observation of how a fwd behaves in the absence of rear grip, it's in the fwd guy himself who came in here and agreed with me (thanks btw). all you've given me so far is one guy who claims he knows a guy who can drift a fwd, another who got an honorary award for trying to drift in a civic, a few guys who claim they can and have drifted fwds, and the rest has all been theory. "if you put shitty tires in back, bias the weight to the front, use the e-brake, etc., you should be able to drift. that's what my friend does".

all i can say now is show me. show me a fwd that can drift through an entire course without ever having a single shred of grip in the rear tires and follow an actual racing line, on dry pavement on an actual race course (designed for cars). show me a fwd that can compete on the same level or even beat a rwd. show me this, and i will never again tell anyone a fwd can't drift, i will champion and respect all fwd drifters.

and i'll tell you right now, gt3 replays don't constitute proof.

other than that, i've nothing more to say that i haven't already said 5 or 6 times. i'm through with this argument.

50 posts! woot!

[nissanguy_24]

I've never seen a mustang do any of what you claim would be proof a FF can drift.. So mustangs cant drift either?

What about cars that havent been made yet? they wont be able to drift.

I saw a guy try to drift a GTO and didnt win, Guess they cant drift either.

Your a very closeminded guy.

[jboss]

Your argument lacks serious substance. It is simply a string of (often wrong) assertions about what is going on and things you have seen. Everytime someone explains it to you you tack on an additional condition that must be met in order to really be "drifitng".

With the exception of the condition that the rear wheels be spinning, a FF car can and has and will drift........

Just because FF cars rarely (if ever) place well against FR or AWD cars in drift competitions doesnt mean that they cant. the problem is that most serious drivers would go to a FR setup rather than drop the money and testing and practice required to make a FF perform as well in these competitions.

and one more thing---all of this can be done without any of the crazy mods I mentioned before (crap tires in back, bias the weight to the front etc etc.).

My car drifts just fine on dry pavement without using the e-brake, flick, or LFB. Granted it is easier to maintain these types of drifts while decreasing the radius of your turning circle, it can be done with an increasing radius as well.

WOW, that sounds just like a FR car. As the radius increases more throttle and/or brakes are required to keep the back end out. Eventually the radius of the turn is so large that even the most powerful FR car cannot keep the back out.---

I'll offer you this---fly over here so i can show you and if you are not convinced I will pay for your plane tickets......

[Ghost of Duluth]

That's it. boy you nailed it on the head. Man I guess no one on the entire forums can Drift. If you got to Drift an entire race course without the rear tires gripping once to constitute a real Drift, hell we all in trouble.

BTW what do you do? How old are you? What experience do you have in automobiles? I for one would love to know that. Cause if you have ANY experience in either Racing, Drifting or any other motorsport, you would know what you are saying is bunk and sounds like a 15 year old. I think we have argued this point with a Drift instructer/IRL driver, Jboss who is a Rally driver, myself who is a Stunt driving instructer/SCCA IT class driver and I can't remember who else. Any car can drift man face the facts, if you can't Drift a FF then maybe you suck at driving a FF. I can't Drift a FF but I know they can Drift. Not the same as a FR car but Drifting is sliding my man. If you don't know that then maybe you need to do a search on the site. I can remember a clip with a couple Subarus that is some awesome FF Drifting and a Civic that is 20 times better than the clip that was posted on this thread. But Jboss is right. Everytime someone points something out to you, you tack on some other reason or quota that you need met to prove to you that it is Drifting(even though your definition of Drifting sure sounded like what an FF car does). Only one I haven't seen yet is the angle of the moon. Does it have to be at 12:30 for you to consider a FF as a Drifter or 1:30? I bet if someone shows you a video, you'll say that the lighting was bad and you couldn't see it. Whatever the case man, think what you want to. FF is here whether you like it or not. Soon it will be in D1 and then you gonna feel mighty goofy. You probably won't though cause the moon won't be in the right place.

Maybe FF Drifting just hasn't caught on in Neo Tokyo yet. Yea that's it. Drifting is for chronies anyway. Trailer Queening is a man's sport. It takes alot to load and unload a car without scratching it. Alot to polish a Valve cover until your hands bleed.
And even more to resist putting oil in it and cranking it. But if you put oil in it at 12:30, then you really didn't put oil in it is what I heard.

[HX-50]

One point i would like to make on the losing traction with the rear wheels, if you're in a rwd car and you lose 100% traction as you've stated is necessary for drift wouldn't hitting the gas either A) spin you out or B) do nothing at all? so therefor you need to have some traction in the rear with a rwd car in a drift, just as you would have in a fwd car, also the reason you don't see fwd cars in too many drift competitions is that a rwd car is more suited for drift than a fwd car, but this does not mean that it's impossible, if you want to see some good examples of fwd drift, watch some SCCA rally events where the fwd classes run, that's about all the proof you need. again, fwd cars cannont maintain a drift as long as a rwd car this is true, but a fwd car is perfectly capable of drifting. Now, would someone lock this topic? it's gone on for long enough i think

[Drift For Food]

Wow, this got looooonnnnnngggggg real quick,lol.

I'd say something if I could think of something else to say other than others have said already.

Go rwd drift!

But rwd is more fun.

[kaneda]

I've never seen a mustang do any of what you claim would be proof a FF can drift.. So mustangs cant drift either?

a mustang is capable of breaking it's rear end loose, therefore it should be able to drift, and i know from first hand experience because i've seen it done

What about cars that havent been made yet? they wont be able to drift.

if they're rear drive, then they should theoretically be able to drift

I saw a guy try to drift a GTO and didnt win, Guess they cant drift either.

rhys didn't win, but he broke traction, he slide through every corner, he drifter the duration of the track without traction, therefore rhys and his gto can drift

Your a very closeminded guy.

and you're apparently very ignorant of the ff platform's capabilities

Your argument lacks serious substance. It is simply a string of (often wrong) assertions about what is going on and things you have seen. Everytime someone explains it to you you tack on an additional condition that must be met in order to really be "drifitng".

i've been thinking the same thing this whole time about you 4(?). you use a very broad definition of drifting, in essence saying that all a drift is is oversteer, that lacks real substance. and i haven't tacked on more conditions, my conditions are that the car must be able to completely lose traction in it's rear and slide through an entire corner, entry to exit.

With the exception of the condition that the rear wheels be spinning, a FF car can and has and will drift

no, an ff will assdrag. it can't lose traction.

Just because FF cars rarely (if ever) place well against FR or AWD cars in drift competitions doesnt mean that they cant. the problem is that most serious drivers would go to a FR setup rather than drop the money and testing and practice required to make a FF perform as well in these competitions.

or maybe, it's because ffs will always have too much grip in the rear tires and not enough control?

and one more thing---all of this can be done without any of the crazy mods I mentioned before (crap tires in back, bias the weight to the front etc etc.).

that's still assdragging.

My car drifts just fine on dry pavement without using the e-brake, flick, or LFB. Granted it is easier to maintain these types of drifts while decreasing the radius of your turning circle, it can be done with an increasing radius as well.

WOW, that sounds just like a FR car. As the radius increases more throttle and/or brakes are required to keep the back end out. Eventually the radius of the turn is so large that even the most powerful FR car cannot keep the back out.---

show me. prove me wrong.

I'll offer you this---fly over here so i can show you and if you are not convinced I will pay for your plane tickets......

get a friend, tape it with a digi cam, find a host and post it.

you keep saying you can do so, but you haven't offered a plausible way to prove this, other than "if you go into gran turismo" (which i did btw, and just like in real life, the car got sideways, grabbed for traction, killed it's exit speed and nearly stopped the car, all before i even got past the apex).

That's it. boy you nailed it on the head. Man I guess no one on the entire forums can Drift. If you got to Drift an entire race course without the rear tires gripping once to constitute a real Drift, hell we all in trouble.

that's the utmost goal in drifting. alex pfeiffer has said this, tsuchiya has said this, i think orido has even said this. you don't necessarily have to drift an entire race track, that isht is hard. it doesn't mean you're not drifting though, if you can make your car lose traction and slide sideways through an entire corner, then you can drift. if you can do this the whole way through a race track, then you're a great driver. and since a majority of this board seems to be fwd assdraggers, then no, most of the people on this board can't drift. you can have fun though, just dont try to pass it off as drifting.

BTW what do you do? How old are you? What experience do you have in automobiles? I for one would love to know that. Cause if you have ANY experience in either Racing, Drifting or any other motorsport, you would know what you are saying is bunk and sounds like a 15 year old.

what? when in doubt, result to personal attacks? i'm not the type that's fond of putting a bunch of my information online (i don't even give people my personal email address) but i will tell you that most of my experience with automobiles is light maintenance (oil changes, changing plugs, swapping alternators, etc.), the bulk of my driving experience is in fwd. i've driven everything from
neons, to saturn sls, to chrysler concordes. i've also driven camaros, rps13s and a formula (torque is good)

But Jboss is right. Everytime someone points something out to you, you tack on some other reason or quota that you need met to prove to you that it is Drifting(even though your definition of Drifting sure sounded like what an FF car does).

look at every post i've made so far, the definition has remained the same throughout. if you can't exceed the maximum slip angle of your rear tires and hold a slide without traction, then you cannot drift. this doesn't mean that only rwds can drift and all rwds can drift, it just means that only a car capable of spinning it's rear tires and thereby losing traction (awd and rwd), has the potential to drift.

Only one I haven't seen yet is the angle of the moon. Does it have to be at 12:30 for you to consider a FF as a Drifter or 1:30

all of the planets have to be in alignment, the man child must be slain in sacrifice and you must drink his blood from the skull of an ox. you can't drift without a human sacrifice. come on, everyone knows that.

I bet if someone shows you a video, you'll say that the lighting was bad and you couldn't see it. Whatever the case man, think what you want to. FF is here whether you like it or not. Soon it will be in D1 and then you gonna feel mighty goofy. You probably won't though cause the moon won't be in the right place.

show me a video and we'll find out. you keep telling me my claims are unfounded, yet no one seems to be able to actually prove me wrong. show me a video. if ffs can drift so well, there should be a video of it somewhere. and as you pointed out before, d1 cars have been entering option contests, the d1gp, the ikaten contests, all sorts of competitions, but because they cannot drift, they lose. they're eliminated early because they can't keep up and they can't "drift" a corner properly. it's not smooth, the car is gripping and you're fighting it. it's like comparing making love to prison sex.

Maybe FF Drifting just hasn't caught on in Neo Tokyo yet

is that that thing those kids do with those horseless carriages?

It takes alot to load and unload a car without scratching it. Alot to polish a Valve cover until your hands bleed.

who said anything about show cars? i hate show cars, what's the point of building something if you're not going to drive it?

And even more to resist putting oil in it and cranking it. But if you put oil in it at 12:30, then you really didn't put oil in it is what I heard.

if you get ready to change your oil, you take the oil pan plug out, let it drain, but don't put it back in, and then pour more oil in, so that it all runs straight through, is it still changing the oil? no, it's a failed attempt at changing your oil.

One point i would like to make on the losing traction with the rear wheels, if you're in a rwd car and you lose 100% traction as you've stated is necessary for drift wouldn't hitting the gas either A) spin you out or B) do nothing at all? so therefor you need to have some traction in the rear with a rwd car in a drift, just as you would have in a fwd car

i already went over this, it would break the law of thermodynamics (look it up, i'm not going to explain the whole thing here) for a tire to spin on pavement and not create some type of friction. if it were possible, then congratulations, you're 2 steps from creating perpetual motion (also impossible). you know what i mean when i say "lose all of it's traction". 100% is impossible.

also the reason you don't see fwd cars in too many drift competitions is that a rwd car is more suited for drift than a fwd car, but this does not mean that it's impossible

or it could be, that you can't drift a fwd? perhaps because you can't control the rear of the car and it has too much grip? perhaps?

if you want to see some good examples of fwd drift, watch some SCCA rally events where the fwd classes run, that's about all the proof you need. again, fwd cars cannont maintain a drift as long as a rwd car this is true, but a fwd car is perfectly capable of drifting. Now, would someone lock this topic? it's gone on for long enough i think

drifting applies to pavement. that's why they don't call it rally racing. when you "drift" on dirt, grip is eliminated due to the fact that you're on an unstable surface. but as soon as the car slows, those tires are digging right back in. which in rally driving, actually gives ff the advantage (like i said before). a fwd cannot drift. you haven't proved me wrong. all i need is a video, or to see it in person, and i'm on your side forever.

----

that's my final post. i'm through. you guys haven't proven that a fwd can drift, all you've done so far is claim that all oversteering is drifting. if that's all it was, then they wouldn't even call it drifting. you'd see things like "the oversteer grand prix" or "the ikaten oversteer competition", drifting is maintaining a state of loss of traction, not just oversteer.

i'm not going to post anything else in this thread unless you guys can show me an actual fwd drift, not just some riceboy assdragging. i've made my point about a dozen times now, there's no point in repeating myself again for 3 more pages. if you want to lock this, go ahead, ghost is a mod isn't he? do your thing, i could care less. i know the likelyhood of you guys posting a fwd drift video is slim to none.

[HX-50]

Originally posted by kaneda

drifting applies to pavement. that's why they don't call it rally racing. when you "drift" on dirt, grip is eliminated due to the fact that you're on an unstable surface. but as soon as the car slows, those tires are digging right back in. which in rally driving, actually gives ff the advantage (like i said before). a fwd cannot drift. you haven't proved me wrong. all i need is a video, or to see it in person, and i'm on your side forever.

[/B]

many rally events are run on tarmac

[kaneda]

i hate to go back on my word but:

how many tarmac rally's have long sweeping corners like a circuit or gymkana course would have? none. if you watch tarmac rallys you'll see that the drivers are pulling the e-brake to powerslide around hairpins without losing speed. the rest is grip mostly grip driving, and you'll notice, the cars dominating are lancers and scoobys, not civics and tiburons (although that one tiburon is pretty d@mn fast in the dirt)

don't sit around arguing semantics. prove a fwd can drift so we can end this already.

[HasNoTiresLeft]

Man you guys type ALOT lol i would cramp both hands typing that much. But i think the best explanation was

If it looks, smells, and tastes like a burger, then its a burger

[nissanguy_24]

HAHA your right his only cirteria for it to be a drift is that its RWD. Thus making all of his post kind of stupid.

He will admit that a FWD can do the same as the rear wheel drive, but it cant spin the tires with the throttle. A rediculous arguement.

[CrazyHawaiian]

I've found that usually when people ask for the thread to be locked its because they are realizing that they cannot back up what they are saying with facts. There is no reason to lock this thread. Ghost is not asking about personal information as an attack. He (and I for that matter) simply want to know how much experience / knowhow you actually have regarding drifting because you are not backing up your opinions with any facts, just more opinions and theory. Its fine to have an opinion, but when you begin to force it on others and talk trash, prepare to back yourself up with facts. From what I can tell, you dont think FF can drift because YOU cant do it yourself. So to consider it impossible just because YOU cant do it, you must be an expert on the subject right? You know what, I dont want to be rude but you're asking for it. Having the following experience: "light maintenance (oil changes, changing plugs, swapping alternators, etc.), the bulk of my driving experience is in fwd. i've driven everything from neons, to saturn sls, to chrysler concordes. i've also driven camaros, rps13s and a formula (torque is good)" hardly makes you qualified to tell us what drifting is and what drifting isn't. I've been to these events you watch on DVD, I've seen this stuff in person, I drift my car regularly, and I've ridden in FF cars while drifting both the track and the mountain. Even with my limited experience (limited compared to the Japan guys) I still think its safe for me to insist that YES FF can drift, simply because I have seen and experienced it in real life. You dont want to believe it? Fine. But you go talk trash about the FF drifters saying they suck and they are only 'attempting' to drift. Thats complete horse crap, especially comming from someone who is not deep into the scene. Alex has the right to diss FF because he's a drifter. And when he comes down to Hawaii (or vice versa) believe me Kyle is waiting for his chance to battle him. If you ever wanted to know how to piss of a drifter, now you know. Talk crap about their style calling it an 'attempt' and you will get under peoples skin. If FF can't drift, then I doubt that Civic would have placed 2nd in that East Coast DRIFT competition, and I doubt Kyle would have been recognized at the DRIFT Showoff. Are you trying to tell us that the Judges at drift competitions dont know what drifting is, and YOU do? Then why aren't you a judge?

[Ghost of Duluth]

A personal attack? Man you really are reaching. I only asked to gauge what you know (or don't know as your posts suggest).

All you have to do is "Search" the forums. The videos that I spoke of are here. You seem to have no trouble typing a 3 page long rebuttle so why can't you search. I guess that falls under the pigheaded way you cling to your ideals about FF drifting. But that is neither here nor there.

I have told you, other people have told you, so if you don't think a FF can Drift then good for you. I don't think you have any experience with automobiles, Drifting, FF cars, FR cars or anything to do with an automobile. That's my opinion and you can't change it. If you think i'm wrong, get a friend with a digicam and tape it, find a host and post it.

Reading your posts, which by the way have 0 fact in them, just your opinions, they also have 3 or 4 different definitions of what constitutes a Drift, one of which sums a FF perfectly. I think you really need to go to a driving school. Take your Neon or your Concord or whatever it is you drive out on the track and try it. It doesn't sound like you have. If you can't make it drift then I stand by what I said before. Maybe you suck at driving a FWD. Doesn't sound to me like you even know how to Drift period. Sounds like you're trying to drift your mouse all over this forum.

[kaneda]

i wasn't the one who requested the thread to be locked, i simply agreed that if you guys couldn't show me a fwd drifting, then why keep going on?

like i said, you guys all have a very broad termination of the word "drift", it seems that oversteer, or any sideways motion for that matter constitutes drifting. if i drive through a puddle too fast while turning and the back of my car hydroplanes, am i drifting? if i pull my e-brake going through a 90 degree turn at 45mph, the back end skids out and i slam on the gas, was i drifting? if i turn to fast and the nose of my car shifts to the inside of the corner with my tail dragging behind me, was that drifting?

to me, as i keep saying, "drifting is the act of maintaining a loss of traction/"oversteer condition", through the duration of a corner, from corner entry to exit for the purpose of speed and/or style." most people seem to agree that this definition is right, yet no one seems to be able to show me a fwd doing this. if a fwd can drift, then it should be able to lose traction and slide completely around a corner without any* grip. every fwd "drift" i've ever seen has been someone coming into a corner with a very high entry speed, braking, shifting the weight and dragging through the corner, the back end is jumping and skipping off the ground (because it still has too much traction, and that's with junk tires), the exit speed is killed, the exit angle is completely off and the car comes to a near complete stop before it clears the corner.

is it because the driver sucks at controlling his car? no, it's because he can't control the rear end of his car, he's having to brake, steer and accelerate all with the front wheels, the car is fumbling over itself. by the time he's gotten his car full-on sideways through a corner, and is experiencing real drift (not just oversteer), the rear wheels start gripping again and slows him down, killing his drift. this is part of what i was talking about when i said "a fwd can do a drift, but it can't drift.".

you may be able to generate oversteer, then maintain it to travel through a corner, but due to lack of control in the rear of the car, as soon as you accelerate, the rear end grabs for grip and you stop drifting. a fwd can generate oversteer and for a brief few seconds, you will experience real drift. the car will be drifting, the rear is sliding, you're making the corner, it's a real drift! but then you pass the apex, have to finish your turn in and clear the rest of the corner, what's the only way to do this? if you brake you're just going to slide off the road or kill the drift (i know from firsthand experience, i assdrag and watch others assdrag all the time), what can you do? your momentum isn't going to carry you through, all you can do is accelerate and hope those shitty underinflated tires you put in the back aren't going to grab the road, so you accelerate, and the back end hits the ground, weight shifts to the front and the car starts fighting the drift. the back is jumping, struggling, you're trying to steer and accelerate at the same time, you just killed it. you're no longer drifting. you haven't cleared the apex, by my definition, that you all btw keep saying is correct, you can't drift. you haven't slid from corner entry to exit. did you experience drift? yes you did, but that still doesn't mean you can drift. "a fwd can do a drift, but it can't drift".

now, lets say you can get that rear end to slide out and lose traction like a rear drive, well, how do you hold it? how do you change direction without losing momentum? how do you keep the car sliding the whole way through the corner? if you accelerate, it's only going to pull you closer to the apex, you can steer and drift like an ae86 or an mr2 can, what do you do? if you try, not only will you be pulled closer to the apex, it'll push your nose directly towards it, then you've either got to brake or plow through the grass. if you don't accelerate and you brake, since it takes so much weight and brake bias to "drift" in a fwd, from my experience, the car is going to try to spin as the rear tires grip and bring the nose around, even if you managed to pull that one off you've still killed your exit speed. the car is coming to a stop. if you do nothing at all, you'll keep drifting until the rear tires grip and then your car rights itself and either stops, spins or coasts forward, not sideways. a rwd or awd would overcome all of these situations. why? because they have control.

i didn't start trash talking until you 5 or 6 started doing it to me. i didn't say fwds suck, i said they're no good for drifting. i doubt i could get in an ae86 and just go sliding around the track, does that mean i think an ae86 can't drift? no it just means i can't do it. this argument isn't over people's abilities, it's over whether or not the car itself is capable of drifting. kyle arai is a great driver. he was recognized by the judges becasue he could slide his car and slide it well. but if he was drifting, doesn't it seem likely that he would've gotten 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or maybe even won it, instead of just getting a special award? the judges know what drifting is, they've been judging contests for years, they ARE drifters, but they also know that a fwd is limited and can't keep up with a rwd, they know kyle arai was likely having to fight grip on every corner, every time he was choky dori'ing, he was fighting to keep that ef sideways, every time he was connecting his corners the rear was on the verge of connecting and sending him into a guardrail. that's why he got an award. because he demonstrated excelent car control. if i was a judge, i would've given him that award too.

HAHA your right his only cirteria for it to be a drift is that its RWD. Thus making all of his post kind of stupid.

my criteria is that it must slide through a corner, without grip, from entry to exit. a fwd cannot do this. it can't maintain constant oversteer. it always has to fight grip. it may experience real drift for a brief second, but this amount of time is so miniscule, that it's for the most part useless when trying to drift. i know i've tried to drift in a fwd, have you? you can feel the car struggling aganst you, you can feel the car shaking, you can feel the rear end struggling to keep gripping the road. it's like trying to ride your bike with an anvil tied to the rear wheel.

He will admit that a FWD can do the same as the rear wheel drive, but it cant spin the tires with the throttle. A rediculous arguement.

if it can't spin it's tires then how does it lose traction? shitty tires only go so far.

*and you know what i mean, 100% is impossible