FF Drift...help, newbie and FF, uh oh

[CrazyHawaiian]

If his INTENT was not to connect those corners, then I would agree that he was not drifting. But if his INTENT was to connect the turns, and he just didnt get it done, then I would say he didnt drift as well as he wanted to. Neither of us know his INTENT because only the driver knows, but I'm sure he was trying to connect those turns. Forget about the drivetrain layout for a minute and think about the different thought processes involved with gripping and drifting. If the driver WANTS to drift, then the car is going to drift. Maybe he wont do it good / perfect the first time, but if he practices, eventually he will get better. The only difference between FWD and RWD in my opinion is that FWD pulls you through the turn, and RWD pushes you through the turn. Yes the rear wheels are dead weight while drifting FWD (aka azz dragging), but so what. Which wheels lock up and when have nothing to do with defining drifting. The cars action, determined by driver input, is what determines if a car is drifting or not. Like others have said, does it really matter HOW its done?

[kaneda]

The cars action, determined by driver input, is what determines if a car is drifting or not.

so, if i pull the ebrake/turn in too fast in my saturn trying to drift, but my rear tires haven't lost traction, does that mean i can drift? just because my intent was to drift, even though i haven't sustained any actual loss of traction? look at him, he was assdragging. it may look like drift to you, but to me it doesn't taste or smell like it. he ll, maybe we should just start calling it something else. the 2 will never be the same. it doesn't look the same and it doesn't feel the same.

Like others have said, does it really matter HOW its done?

i suppose not. but dragging and sliding are 2 very different things.

dragging = to move with resistance
3 a : the act or an instance of dragging or drawing: as (1) : a drawing along or over a surface with effort or pressure (2) : motion effected with slowness or difficulty; also : the condition of having or seeming to have such motion (3) - websters dictionary

sliding = to move without resistance
1 a : to move smoothly along a surface : SLIP b : to coast over snow or ice c of a base runner in baseball : to fall or dive feetfirst or headfirst when approaching a base
1 a : to cause to glide or slip b : to traverse in a sliding manner - websters dictionary

drifting = to slide without resistance
5 : the motion or action of drifting especially spatially and usually under external influence: as a : the lateral motion of an aircraft due to air currents b : an easy moderate more or less steady flow or sweep along a spatial course c : a gradual shift in attitude, opinion, or position d : an aimless course; especially : a foregoing of any attempt at direction or control - websters dictionary

[Ghost of Duluth]

Ok well you just clinched it right there.

You said that that guy is better than most of the people you ahve seen. Seen doing what? Drifting? Well then he is Drifting.

Also you said that he wold kick the Arse of everyone you know in person, Kick thair arse at what? Drifting? Well then he is Drifting.

Call it what you want, but that guy is in front of a Silvia and staying in front of it, he would win pretty much ANY Drifting event he intered here so that to me means he is Drifting. Video don't lie. As I said before.

If it looks like a Drift, Smells like a Drift and sounds like a Drift. It sure as heck ain't anyting but a Drift. Whether he is spiniing the rear wheels or the front wheels, he is still hanging the rear end out, sliding around the corner and keeping control. Also earlier you asked if you hit a puddle and hydroplaned the rear end out, were you Drifting. Sure. If you controlled it and did all the above, you Drifted. Unintentional Drift but it was Drifting.

Yea they are dragging around the rear end but they are doing the same basic physics that rear drives are doing. The ONLY difference is that RWD can spin the rear and FWD can't. Other than that they both use the E-brake to induce Drift, they can both use the flick to initiate it or they both can use weight transfer to initiate it. They look basically the same Drifting. The FWD has to use the E-brake keep the Drift and loses a litle more speed sometimes but thats it. It's Drifting man plain and simple.

There really is no arguement on this. I don't see how it has gone on this long. The rebuttles and reason for it not being a Drift are weak at best. Video has been shown and that is kepper. It's really too bad that the FF's get a bad wrap on this. FF's get that wrap due to them being the preferred vehicle of choice for Ricers the world over. As the sport grows though you are going to see more FF's in it and when they start winning "Drifting" contests then the arguement on FF Drifting will be done and dead. You can argue with us but you cannot argue with the rules. Rules allow FWD's to enter Drift events now, so if they couldn't Drift then why are they being let in?.

This arguement is sort of like standing in line at Viper Room. You all know the Viper Room, Johnny Depps club in LS. The one where River Phoenix OD'd. Well you may be standing in line and getting all mad because those big people called bouncers are letting someone pass in front of you. You may not agree with who they are letting in but there is a reason why they are doing it and you can't change it.

So cut FF's some slack.

[kaneda]

speed channel needs to stop with the barret jackson crap in the middle of sebring!!!

i'll cut them slack. in my mind a fwd still can't drift. but i will cut them slack. i'll no longer go around telling people that a fwd can't drift, instead of saying "a fwd cannot drift", i'll say "imo, a fwd cannot drift". that's as far as i go. to me fwd can't drift, and it's not the same as drifting, it doesn't look, feel or taste like drift to me, it'll always be assdragging. good assdragging, but assdragging none the less. more skid than slide. i was still very impressed, that was better than i thought it would be.

when i say he could beat most of the guys i know, i'm talking about car control. this guys a pro, he's probably been 'drifting' fwd for several years, as compared to the guys i hang out with who've only been drifting rwd for 2 or 3 years (though some of them are quite good)

yes, the rules don't say anything about drive train, i agree, take whatever you want out and go for it, but to me it's still not drifting. if fwds can drift just as well, i still don't see why no one has won a major contest doing it.

the s14 was probably stuck back there because the civic wasn't driving as fast and the angles you use to assdrag and the angles you use to drift are different. if he had gotten right up on him in a tandem drift he probably would've crowded him to the point where neither could enter or exit a corner properly.

[Ghost of Duluth]

Actually if you watch the video they are at the exact same angles and it's a fast speed. Also they look exactly the same. Except the back wheels stop spinning on the Civic more than the S-14.

But whatever. If you stepped out of your box of thinking and looked at the video with an objective opinion you would see that they look identical. Same angles, speed, look, smell, feel everything. If you watch the in-camera, he doesn't use the e-brake to induce drift, he uses the flick and rapid weight transfer. He just uses the E-brake a couple times to keep it. The back wheels stop and go again in a slide (just like a RWD). If it is sliding sideways and rolling, whether under force or just trailing, it's Drifting. RWD do the same thing. Oh and a skid is a slide. Same thing.

Watch any Option video and watch them coming into a corner. There is no power there but yet they are sideways and the rear wheels are spinning, just no power to them. Same exact thing. Exactly the same. Where it changes is when they are halfway into the corner, they apply power to the rear wheels and then they spin. That is the only difference. So by what you are saying, a RWD can't drift on the entry of a corner since they are not using throttle to Drift. They are using inertia and speed. Even though it looks like a Drift it isn't Drifting according to you since there is no power to the rear wheels. Sure it COULD have power to the rear wheels but if they aren't using that power then it isn't Drifting?

Something to think about. But think what you want. Nothing anyone says is going to change that. Thats the American way, you are free to think that and by god so you shall.

[kaneda]

i'm not the only one who says fwds can't drift

"No, not in the sense of a real drift. Drifting in the eyes of Japan and Europe is the sideways pivoting of the rear end of the car due to lack of rear traction from too much power or wheel spin in relation to grip of the front tires. Basically, drifting is over-steer from a rear-wheel drive vehicle.

A slide is when a car breaks rear traction from too much speed through a corner. This term is how I relate to front-wheel drive drifting. When done in an FWD car the rear end of the car can be brought out by various techniques. If you use the hand brake to induce traction loss the car's rear will begin to slide from the sudden lock up of the tires. As the car slides it will be unable to maintain a heavy diagonal angle. As the angle of the slide deteriorates the car will gain traction ending the slide. Some techniques can be used such as the power of the front wheels under throttle to help maintain forward motion for a while longer. Again this is not ture drifting but sliding. True drifting can be done through an entire track layout while never gaining rear traction at any point and time. This is not physically possible to do with front-wheel drive.

If you have an FWD car don't let that stop you, it's still fun to induce slides into a corner and will help you in Rear Wheel Drive drifting later. But the simple fact is FWD cars can't maintain an extended drift for multiple corners, which is why you don't see FWD vehicles in any pro drifting contests."

Brian Norris
Ziel/JIC Works Racing Driver
(driver of the Ziel/JIC D1GP RPS13 240SX)
www.driftclub.com

and from the mouth of someone who actually drove in the d1gp.

[nissanguy_24]

didnt he crash?

[kaneda]

possibly, i'm not sure. i'll look into it, i don't remember hearing anything about it though. was it this years d1gp?

[nissanguy_24]

One of the american guys racing in the pacific rim s13 crashed early on. I think it was norris. but im not certain. But yeah this years d1. he was okay though.

edit: im dumb, obviously it wasnt norris because as you mentioned norris drives the S13 fastback from JIC

anyone know the name of the guy driving the pacific rim s13 coupe that crashed?

[nissanguy_24]

Correction and clearification

My Mistake it was Daijiro Yoshihara who crashed into the wall, right below a camera man and next to the judges. As i recall the camera man was hit in the head by part of the debre comming off the Silvia font end. Anyways its a good think he wasnt hurt. And too bad that beautiful S13 was damaged so badly, i got a good look at it in the pits, nasty...

Okay back to the arguement...

While i respect Norris' opinion as i do all of yours, i cant really agree with him.

In his definition only drifts induced by throttle would be considered real drift. Braking drifts and other weight transfer techniques as well as hand brake techniques would not be considered "true" drifting. Though clearly the throttle is nessisary in a track like irwindale, making a RWD car more flexible then a FF drifter, At least in my eyes that is not the only form of drifting.

[kaneda]

yes it was dai, he hit the same spot that nob ate it in 2003



they would still be considered drifting, you still have to use throttle. if you don't, you stop drifting. weight shift, braking, e-brake, etc., are acompany throttle, but it's still there. you're just giving yourself a little help.

[nissanguy_24]

Yeah thats it.. poor car..


But your not always using the throttle. Most the more advanced guys do. But often time you can clear small and tight corners with out needing the throttle to keep the rear out. Your moment and weight shift keeps it out for a period of time, as long as that period of time is longer then your corner then you can clear it easily with out using the throttle.

If you want to call that *Censored**Censored**Censored* dragging then thats fine. But the fact is its still considered a drift by most. Basicly im saying your foot doesnt nessisarly have to be on the gas for it to be considered a drift, not by most people anyways.

[kaneda]

Originally posted by nissanguy_24
Yeah thats it.. poor car..


But your not always using the throttle. Most the more advanced guys do. But often time you can clear small and tight corners with out needing the throttle to keep the rear out. Your moment and weight shift keeps it out for a period of time, as long as that period of time is longer then your corner then you can clear it easily with out using the throttle.

If you want to call that assdragging then thats fine. But the fact is its still considered a drift by most. Basicly im saying your foot doesnt nessisarly have to be on the gas for it to be considered a drift, not by most people anyways.

well yeah, you're right. you don't always need throttle to drift, but the thing that still seperates the two is the presence of grip. now that i think about it, lift off is exactly that, drifting without throttle. you can keep the wheels spinning in a rwd because you've generated enough momentum to keep them spinning until you get back on the throttle, but in a fwd without throttle to pull you through, the tires are usually going to grip unless you lock them and make them skid. depending on the circumstances, if you've generated the momentum you would be in a real drift, but it still wouldn't last very long.

[nissanguy_24]

Yeah but no one is argueing about how proficient they can drift. Just that they have the ability to do so. And sence you admitted it can. I think we can put this to an end.

[Ghost of Duluth]

Man are you not paying attn to what you say. It is impossible for a RWD to Drift an entire course without any grip. IMPOSSIBLE!!!!. If the car had no grip then it would go absolutely nowhere. It would sit on one space and spin the rear tires.

No grip, no go. A Drifting RWD car STILL has some grip, if it did not then when you put that rear end around, it would just continue on around. That is physics and physics don't lie.

No matter what you say, a FF can Drift. It doesn't matter who says otherwise. Not Pacific Rim, Atlantic rim or just plain ol Rimjob. A FF fits the description of Drifting, it looks like Drifting and all that jazz. Everything you say has been disputed with common sense AND video man let this arguement die in peace before anymore damage is done.

This is like trying to take keys away from a drunk person. They want to give you 20 reasons why they think they can drive home but in the end, they just turn over the keys. Give up the keys man, we don't want you getting hurt.