FF Drift...help, newbie and FF, uh oh

[kaneda]

i already admitted it, "a fwd can do a drift, but a fwd can't drift". drift isn't situational, it doesn't only ocurr under certain circumstances. a fwd 'drift' is still more akin to a powerslide or power oversteer than actual drift.

i think we can all agree that we have different opinions. you showed me some of the best assdragging i've ever seen but in my opinion, fwds still can't sustain constant oversteer and therefore, cannot drift.

and yes, you can sustain a constant state of oversteer throughout an entire race track. click. want more? here.

look at ken nomura and takashi haruyama's tires carefully, they don't stop moving. they slow down every now and then, but they're always moving and the car is always sliding. a "constant oversteer condition". that's the distinction between a fwd assdragging and a rwd drifting. the fwd has traction, the rwd has next to none (since ghost is being so anal about it).

look at mitsuru haraguchi, yasayuki kazama ('04 us d1gp champ) and nobuteru taniguchi's tires, from the time they enter the course (and with nob, before), to the moment they leave, they are sliding.

"You need some grip to keep the car under control. There's no way to go sideways at 60mph in a straight line without it." - Oscar Pareda, Technical Marketing Director of BFGoodrich

[jboss]

but you just said that sliding is not drifting!!!

You cant seem to carry a logically consistent argument throughout any one of your posts, much less across a string of posts, as to what drifiting is without begging the question.

Think about what you are writing before you write it.
1)is it coherent-----(note terms refering to a "total lack of grip" are not coherent)
2)is it logically consitent----(if you say drifing is not sliding and sliding is not drifitng then you can not say that someone has drifted because they slid---as you did in your above post)

More on being logically consistent-----Whne defining the principles that constitute a thing (drifitng) or an action (drifitng) they must:
1)not beg the question
2)be defined without an appeal to an outside contingent considerations
3)be defined without using contentious statements

here is an real life example example of how to argue:
If I were trying to argue that abortion was wrong on moral grounds I first might need to argue that a fetus is a person deserving the same moral considerations as regular humans.
First, I would establish that there is a fundamental underlying moral standing that makes it wrong to kill people. Then I would argue that a fetus fits these conditions thus making it wrong to kill a fetus.
Note that in order to do this I must first define what gives people this moral standing--is it that they are humans, that they are concious, that they have a future like ours, ....???

Humans is no good as a guiding principle because it is quite contentious and begging the question to define humanness....Conciousness is no good because if that was what was required, we coulndt say that is was not ok to kill comatose or sleeping people.......Future like ours is better but not perfect because it either breaks down into the indefensible position that birth control is immorral in the same way (and in the same magnitude) that murder is immoral or, hinges on the contentious argument of when a fetus gains a future like ours---which by the way must hinge on when the fetus gains the ability to form desires on its own somewhere around 25-32 weeks gestation.

Now look, If I had begun my argument thinking that abortion was always wrong (ignoring special cases of rape and life threatening pregnancy) I might be disapointed at the result because it says that it is probaly morraly ok to have abortions in the first two trimesters.

Likewise if I had started with the other point of veiw that abortion is always ok and up to the mother then I might be disapointed because this shows that it is probably not morally ok to have late term abortions.

But, both sides MUST conceed that the logical conclusion is correct regardless of how they feel.

You have failed to conceed taht the logical conclusion is correct despite how you feel--so you keep on trying to go back and redefine drifting in a way that excludes FF. Good luck, your task is impossible, you will never be able to define drifting in a way that satisfies the logical necessities outlined above that also excludes FF.

Welcome to REALITY.
Give up already-----oh if only people didnt think the debate team was too dorky in highschool.......the internet would be a more productive place.

[kaneda]

i'm not going to argue about this any more. no one had posted for almost 3 days and i had no intention of coming back to this. you can try to dissect my arguments as much as you like, but i'm not going over this whole thing again. a fwd cannot drift and i will always hold to that, the only way i'm going to see it otherwise is if someone actually shows me a fwd creating continous oversteer and NOT dragging it's arse around the track. let's just end this now, we've all repeated each other a few dozen times over and we're never going to see eye-to-eye.

[jboss]

one more logical error, it had only been 1.5 days.......not 3 days

And, you still bear the burden of producing a definition that meets the criteria for being coherent and logically consistent.

I already gave you the videos....did you ever get the subaru one to open? If not, I am sure you have a friend with a computer that can open it....

THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE!!!!

[Ghost of Duluth]

Kaneda.

I wrote in this thread that even though we disagree on FF Drifting, I liked you. So it dissapoints me to read your comments on other boards. It seems that you came on here for the sole intention of stirring things up. Just because people don't agree with you, that doesn't make them idiots. That was not needed in the least. If you would like to stir things up at least understand that there are people that are on other forums and you make yourself look immature and ignorant by doing that. You actually sounded intelligent by reading your posts and the way they were worded (even though I didn't agree with the information), they were well worded. Then I read yours on another site and think, wow is this the same guy?

Well whatever respect you may have gained here by your intelligently worded posts is gone. I still invite you to post and be a part of the community and I will help you all I can because I am beter than that pettiness. So if you ever need anything, ask me, I will be happy to help you.

[driftxtreem]

Ive only read the last two pages and it seems to be the same over and over. If you really dont think that ff can drift then you might as well quit while your ahead. If they consider it a drift they being the D1 then thats all that needs to be said. If a ff can enter a D1 compitition be scored in the compitition and place in the compitition then its DRIFTING. Why is it only every body but Japan that says that a ff cant drift. Ive been in this for quite some time and I asure you I have more knowlage than you. I have never heard a Japanes drifter say that a ff cant drift. More over they seam to do it alot them selves HHHMMMM.

I as well as others have seen your poor excusse of a post on the other forum. To the fool that thinks and or thought that I have ever started anything with 4AG please show me the post. FYI I have never posted anything to degrigate or humiliate any one on that forum. FYI I know MOTO personaly and work with him often at different events. Why in my right mind would I ever stoop so low to harass a friend and member of the same organasation as myself.

As for the topic at hand IF YOU DONT LIKE THE OUTCOME WHY CRY TO OTHERS. If it was respect you wanted you had it untill you went crying somewhere else.

[kaneda]

Originally posted by Ghost of Duluth
Kaneda.

I wrote in this thread that even though we disagree on FF Drifting, I liked you. So it dissapoints me to read your comments on other boards. It seems that you came on here for the sole intention of stirring things up. Just because people don't agree with you, that doesn't make them idiots. That was not needed in the least. If you would like to stir things up at least understand that there are people that are on other forums and you make yourself look immature and ignorant by doing that. You actually sounded intelligent by reading your posts and the way they were worded (even though I didn't agree with the information), they were well worded. Then I read yours on another site and think, wow is this the same guy?

Well whatever respect you may have gained here by your intelligently worded posts is gone. I still invite you to post and be a part of the community and I will help you all I can because I am beter than that pettiness. So if you ever need anything, ask me, I will be happy to help you.

you're talking about 4ag? i am very, very sorry, i made those comments before i really even got to know the people on this board better, i know it doesn't make up for my actions, but i am truly sorry. i did not come here to stire things up, i actually came here just to check things out, i really don't have an excuse for my behavior. if i could take back that comment i would, i see now that you guys are ok and though we do sit on complete opposite ends of the spectrum on some things, i respect you and everyone else that replied's opinions. i know i am often times a little quick to pass judgement, and in previous visits to this board (back in '03) it didn't seem that anyone here knew much of anything, i was referencing this more than the present members of this board. i am sorry for the comments i made, and be assured, i mean no ill will against you or anyone else on this board. again, i am very, very sorry

i should pay more attention to my own signature

[IaXeal]

I just wanna say FF's can drift, I'm teaching myself to drift mine, but the FF can't drift like a FR. it takes a diffrent technique thats just as hard to master as heal & toe. but done right an FF can drift just as good as any FR.

[DriftDreams]

VW FF

I am also using an FF car (VW 85 Golf) I have powerslid and E-brake drifted but I do admit that drifting on an FF car is harder since the front tires basicly pull you through the turn.
Now, my car is solid and hugs the road verey well (to well for my liking).
I know driftin can be acomplished in a FF car with out having to use the E-brake method all the time.
I haven't worked all the bugs out but i think that if you know the laws of physics you should be able to learn to drift with your machine.
What I have been working on is swaying my car from side to side and then making the turn\drift.
(The 'Feint Drift' I beleave it is called.)
This works two ways.
One the swaying couses the car's back end to loose grip and the rebound cuases it to drift, the rest is all up to counter steering and inertia.

I say, know your machine.
Drive it, learn how it handles on the road, how it takes corners at high speed (without trying to drift first).
Then learn some basics on how to drift and to keep in mind how enertia works.
after all enertia is the skill that makes the car slide.
Just please be safe and don't think that what you see in manga comix should be attempted in real life.
Practice is the key to great driving, Don't think that just because you read up on how to do all drifting techneques that you can just go out and do them.
It takes time and effort, trial and error, crashes and tickets,
To become a Drifter.

For the record, Heel Toe Tech isn't that hard to master.

Be Safe!!!

[DriftDreams]

º¿º

Just a few thoughts on Drifting FF.

Just wondering if anyone has ever tried
Enter a corner at high speed throwing the car into neutural (presuming the car is stick) just as you are making the drift, then throwing the shifter back into gear in order to get traction to pull out of the turn?!

Since the Front Wheels are pulling you through the turn and therefor will not alow the A$$ to slide like in an FR.

If you think about it you are mainly doing a power slide but instead of regaining control rite away you just counter steer to keep the car in-line (since the car is in neutral).

Anyone have any logical thoughts on this idea and if it would work to make even little FF drifts into actual hair-pin sideway sliding action and not just a few skid outs here and there??

[Drift For Food]

I don't see the need for neutral, but that would be like a throttle off type of slide, no gas, no brake, just a quick weight shift and steering. The only problem is that you can't apply throttle after it starts. All you can do is wait till the rear grabs or brake or e-brake to keep the rear out. You really have to go fast into the corner to keep a slide with a fwd. There's no other way. Anything you do to maintain a drift will decrease speed. Being in neutral or not doesn't make much of a difference. You can just do the same with very light throttle.

[DriftDreams]

TY

Guess I just need more practice, or an RWD Car.
Thanks for the info.

[Drift For Food]

I shouldn't say there's no other way. The principles are the same for any car or any drive type. It's all basic physics. To start, hold, and exit a drift works the same way. Each person will have their own methods of doing the same general thing. The drive type of the car will limit what things you can do. A certain drive type may provide an advantage in one area while it may lack in another. Fwd's can drift. The drive type just limits them in certain ways. Basically throttle does the opposite thing of a rwd.

Neutral or not doesn't matter. As long as the outcome is the same, the technique doesn't matter. Everyone will do different things to drift. Some may prefer e-brake, others throttling over, while others feint. They all start a drift. Even if two people use the exact same technique, there may be small differences in steps. Shift times may vary. I'm one not to shift to every gear if I don't have to. I'll go from 4th to neutral, blip the throttle and put it in second. I won't go to 3rd. This is a method difference between me and another person. Also, each person has certain preferences. I learned without a hand brake, so I favor other methods to initiate or increase drift angle will drifting. I prefer a feint and/or braking drifts to initiate. During a drift, a low drift angle is fixed with a tap of the brake more than a quick pull on the e-brake. I may steer more and pump the throttle to get the tires looser. These are all little things.

I don't want to say your neutral idea is bad. It's actually good. With fwd, you don't want to think about the throttle anyways until the exit. Anything over very light throttle can make the front slide out. You'll shift more weight to the rear which lowers front traction and raises rear traction, and you could break the front tires loose under heavy throttle which would create understeer. Neutral keeps you front accidentally hitting the throttle. The only thing you may give up is the ability to fine tune your slide with slight throttle adjustments. Increasing and lightening the throttle in mid drift will allow you to transfer weight between front and rear and balance the drift.

[RallyGT]

FF drifts

depending on how good your suspension is you could take turns with out the E brake. i got better and drifting on pavement when i stoped braking. but i have a ford escort gt, with better suspension then a civic. so if you have some good suspension, take a 90 degree turn goin about 50, then counter steer a little and you should be fine. thats how i do it anyway.