3rd feint = spin out

[Spazum888]

lol ya another question.... i know with feints you need to countersteer asap, or atleast get the back end out JUST ENOUGH, then countersteer.... but then comes the second feint... you let the car snap back, throttle on.... again countersteering once the back end is loose.... sometimes ill use the brakes to bring the end out alittle more if its starting to strighten up...... then comes the thrid feint, but for some reason i spin out... even when i countersteer full lock, the snap back is soo intence.... and ive seen this with other drifters.... is their any logic behind this?

*edit* is this where mranlet was talking about the left foot braking?

[CrazyHawaiian]

I think maybe you're building up too much weight transfer by using the brakes on the second one. What your describing sounds more like Choku Dori's than Feint drifts. When I do choku's I mainly use throttle and steering input, rarely the brakes. If you are going too fast then you need less throttle. I've seen people use their brakes and even handbrake to initiate, prolong, and exit choku's and still pull it off. Just requires the correct timing and feel for the car I guess. Ever since I've returned from my break, I've been having problems doing choku's so I guess I shouldnt talk. My car has a messed up steering problem (turns left more than it turns right) so at full lock right its only at about 60% rotation. Makes it really hard to drift man, I gotta fix this!!

[nissanguy_24]

From the description it sounds like you are getting loose, not countersteering enough, letting the force Swing you back the other direction, as to take the next corner, then doing it again for the next corner.

The problem here is you are attempting to use the rebound force from exitng your drift with out enough countersteer to initiate your next drift. Its an advanced technique. Its easy to get it to rebound, Much more difficult to control that rebound.

Likely you are building up too much force in these rebounds so by the third the rear is swinging around so fast that no amount of countersteer can stop on top of it. Obviously i dont know enough about your technique or skill level, but try taking just one corner and exiting with no rebound, and see how well you do. Then try taking two corners and exiting that second corner with no rebound. Once your good at that, go back to the first corner and try to exit with some rebound. Learn it, control it, then harness it. its possible you are trying to jump the gun and harness this effect before you can fully control it.

Its also possible you can control, However mechanically your steering is too slow to stay on top of the rebound. So you may want to look into quicker steering especially if your running a car that doesnt come with very quick steering.

However like Ch said, your probably building up alot of weight transfer in your second turn. in Other words your weight transfer was enough to initiate the drift, however you have weigh transfer + rebound.

Anyways give us some more info and if what we have said is helpful then come back and let us work more of it out. These technique conversations seem rare, but they are very good for the forum.

EDIT: Another thought, its possible that you just dont counter steer very quick. I am seeing a senario where you got used to using that rebound to initiate another drift, before learning how to eleminate it with quick countersteering. You dont nesissarly need to coutnersteer alot. But you need to END your counter steering as the rear comes around. So when the rear bites your wheels are pointed straight. if you havent had enough practice with that relatively basic thing yet, its possible your countersteer and returning the countersteer on the exit of your third corner isnt quick enough.


anyways just some ideas.

[SilverGhost]

what kind of car are you sliding? *i may have asked you before, but i forgot*
i know that when i drift the Z that my family owns and i try to do choku dori, that is exactly what happens. on about the third one the backend comes around so fast that i cant steer quick enough to catch it. but in my RS13 i can do choku dori all day long with out spinning. moral of the story: Z has alot of snap back oversteer due to the amount of torque it has, and its suspension (much the same type of thing that makes drifting MR2's near impossible); but the RS13 has good stiff suspension and not as much torque, so it makes the slides a little easier to control. but all in all the choku dori fishtailing-type drifting is a very hard technique, and it does take practice.so go have some fun, just keep practicing.

[RallyGT]

i donno much about drifting in an FR, i did drift my aunts 2004 mx5 a few weeks ago tho... but when i feint drift in my FF i can get thru one, then half way thru the next....probly because of the lack of speed, but thats on dry ground

[Drift For Food]

Yeah, I agree with steering thing. One thing you may not notice is how much more you're sliding the car on the second drift. If you're at a higher angle, you'll come back faster when it straightens back out.

Steering sooner and/or faster will get your front ahead of your rear. If you're too slow, your rear will come around and you'll be trying to get the front to catch up.

Also, you could try staying off the throttle a little bit on the third drift. This will help keep the rear end in check as well.

Braking can initiate the switch from a left drift to a right drift. It shifts weight forward creating oversteer while you're countersteering. This will whip the car around. If you brake a little in between the drifts, you may be promoting whip more than you need to.

I can't really say much on how to change the way you're drifting unless you can run throught it step by step. I assume it's just something simple where you drift at a higher angle going one direction than you do going the other direction. Perhaps the corners are different. There's something that makes you change your technique from your first two drifts. Whatever it is, try to eliminate the difference or change your technique to accomodate it if it's necessary to go around the corner.

What car is this? Is it rear heavy? How much oversteer does it have? Both of these can make the rear end a little more slide happy.

[Spazum888]

just a normal S14, Ka, VLSD (thats going out), AGX's, TEIN S-tech.... so i have minor suspension work... i would like to say im pretty good.... not great or even close.... but i can hold my own...

- im used to feints, going into a turn.... lets say its a left turn.. ill first feint turning left... break the back end out just by power over, (for me when i power over i usually come into the turn norman speed, but by the time i lose traction pick up about 5-10 MPH) then ill let the car snap back turning right.... so now im oppsite of the left turn... control the slide with extreem countersteer, but since im just using countersteer and snap back i lose speed, so ill use the brakes to bring the back end out alittle, DfD is correct, im at a pretty extreem angle now... snap back hard into the left turn, then from there power on through the turn.... so im guessing right there im using the brakes to complete the feint > going into a drift....




this works for me pretty easy... i can do this 4 times out of 5. but thinking about it i dont think i could feint the third turn, due to super snap back, i think DfD is right again, by braking, i initiate the whip around while tring dori's....

now with dori's, i did it once, and only once, got about 5 or 6 small doris in, and it was with nothing but throttle and precise countersteer, i think im tring to go too big in the dori's, tring to get my back end out more then i should, cuz the third one i whip all the way around, sometimes almost doing a 360'. its easy to think about it, but to write it down thats hard...

Choku Dori's are just hard in them selfs, i think in one of the GRIP videos one of the pro's let some dood drive his car, and when he was doing dori's he hit the guard rail... crazyhawaiian, wernt you in the video?

i figured dori's was just several feints put together i might be getting alittle to exicted about this, but thats because all the kids i drift when really dont do their homework, so its hard to ask them wut im doing wrong... thanks for the help

[CrazyHawaiian]

The Choku and the Feint is similar in that they both rely on weight transfer, but they are different in the way that they build up that weight transfer. The feint is usually done when you are gripping and you come upon a turn you want to drift. The feint motion is like loading and unloading a spring. I know I used this explination a few theads down, but its the best way I can explain it. When the "spring" loads you are building weight transfer (aka inertia), and when it unloads you are actually transfering that weight and it causes a slide. When you Choku, you might use a Feint to build up that weight transfer and get it started, but once you get it going, there is no need to build anymore inertia. It will keep going on its own as long as you provide the correct steering and throttle input. Instead of loading and unloading the "spring", the "spring" is now constantly unloading every time you sway to the other side. I know this spring anaology is kind of lame, but when you get the feel for the car you'll kind of understand what I mean. You can feel when the car has its weight evenly distributed (aka you are gripping) and you can feel when its transfered to the rear of the car (aka you are drifting). This feeling is essential because it will determine what kind of driver input you have to give the car to keep the drift going.

From looking at your drawing, I'm wondering how confined this area is. Do you have a lot of room here? I would usually be applying throttle after each "snap back" and no brakes at all, but it depends on how much room you have. Also keep in mind I have throttle control issues HEHEH! (joke). So if there was a lot of room I would be feinting to enter the series of turns, throttle control where you have the first 'power over here', then the snap back (control it with countersteer), more throttle control here, no braking, then the third snap back (again control with counter-steer), and finally throttle control to exit. But if the area is confined then you wouldnt want to use that much throttle. Maybe using the brakes might be the way to go, but if you're running out of room because the area is that confined, maybe try to clear it with one long slide instead of a Choku in the middle. Just an idea.

Anyway, try this: instead of doing anything before the snap back, let the car ride it out. If you want to use brakes, use them after the snap back. If you want to use throttle, use it after the snap back. You dont want to disrupt the weight transfer of the snap back by making changes right before it happens. It makes it really hard to predict whats going to happen. Get that feel for the car "loading" and "unloading" and try not to make drastic changes right before it "unloads" and starts sliding.

I dont think I was ever in any Videos but I'm not sure. I'm not the guy that drives the White Camaro, thats Revlimit. Is this the Grip Video that covered the first Signal Auto event when Komatsu from Signal Auto came down in the Blue Sil180? If so, I only had 1 set of drift tires that day, so after about 10-12 laps in the practice session I was done for the day. But I do remember Alex barrowing Wendells gunmetal grey S13 with a SR20 and doing Choku Dori's down the straight and accidentally hitting the right rear 1/4 panel on the guardrail mid track. Not sure if thats what you are talking about, but if it was, I was standing right behind the guardrail where he hit (not sure if thats on video either). Alex felt really bad but Wendells a cool guy so no hard feelings. Definately no kicking of anyones car ROFL.

[SilverGhost]

cool...i like your s14 (just thought i would add that).....

have you tried the feint by only doing the snap back once to get throught the corner? like come in a higher speed, then feint left (on a right hand corner), then using steering and power-over just snap back around to the right to drift through the corner....im just curious, cause thats how i feint, so yeah..i find it works pretty well....

[Spazum888]

Originally posted by SilverGhost
cool...i like your s14 (just thought i would add that).....

have you tried the feint by only doing the snap back once to get throught the corner? like come in a higher speed, then feint left (on a right hand corner), then using steering and power-over just snap back around to the right to drift through the corner....im just curious, cause thats how i feint, so yeah..i find it works pretty well....

thanks ya thats how i learned... its a GREAT way to start out, plus if you spin out it will also teach you how to spin out correctly instead of making it worse... i would say learning to spin out should be the first thing you do... with the feints im doing i was just tring to combo the two corners by adding an extra feint... right now im just powering over, i havent tried E-brake or clutch kic to start the drift too much... so i guess for dori's i really shouldnt try to "transfer" the weight too much, just to slight weight transfers to kick the car sideways just enough to keep the dori going the other way with input of throtle and steering... very cool, ill try that next time im out... thanks alot hawaiian! +1

[CrazyHawaiian]

NP, but also keep in mind that my car is probably way heavier than yours, so your experiences might be different. Also different suspension setups will react differently (for example, body roll would add extra force). The weight transfer when driving my Camaro is insane.