Heel and Toe?

[malcolm]

I'm may be wrong but isn't heel toe relatively similiar to double clutching

um, no.

double-clutching can be used in conjunction with heel-and-toeing, but it isn't totally required. If you look at all the Best Motoring videos, none of the drivers there double-clutch, but they all heel-and-toe.

Here's how you do it:

heel and toe without double clutch

you're in fourth gear, you hit the brakes with the left side of your right foot. then, you put in the clutch, bring the gear lever to neutral, blip the gas with the right side of your right foot, put the gear lever in third, let out the clutch, and then continue braking.

heel and toe with double clutch

you're in fourth gear, you hit the brakes with the left side of your right foot. then, you put in the clutch, bring the gear lever to neutral, let out the clutch, blip the gas with the right side of your right foot, put in the clutch again, put the gear lever in third, let out the clutch, and then continue braking.

now, think about it from a technical point of view: if you leave the clutch in (ie. don't double clutch), then the input shaft in the gearbox will slow down or stop, while the output shaft stays spinning at road speeds. When you then put it into a lower gear, it uses the synchros to synchronize the speeds of the shafts so you don't grind the gears.

when you let out the clutch for your blip, you are using the engine to accelerate that shaft to synchronize it, and it takes all the stress off the synchros.

Also, you can double-clutch on upshifts. This is only really used for gearboxes that have problems (worn synchros, damaged dog rings, etc), or in big trucks. I had to resort to double-clutching on upshifts once during a race, because the reverse-lockout system in the gearbox failed, and it went into reverse instead of fifth gear. reverse desinigrated, and the metal bits chewed up all the synchros, so I had to double clutch on all upshifts and downshifts to be able to shift.

Go to howstuffworks.com and do some research on how gearboxes work. It's interesting, and it will allow you to make sense of what I have said.


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oh, and for drifting, heel-and-toeing can be used, but it won't initiate a drift. I sometimes heel-and-toe, and then leave the clutch in just a little longer, to allow the revs to drop, but that just has the same effect as a clutch kick.

[GRiDRaceTech]

Bluballz- First, read my grammar and spelling primer in OT. Second, the videos were from the Drift Bible, and some (Best Motoring?) video with Orido drifting a Levin, which looked only slightly tuned. I also watched a street drift video (with excellent drivers) to glean whatever I could about technique. I suppose I'll also have to watch Drift Bible when it comes in today.

Fact is that I am a grip driver, first and foremost. In the grip world, to downshift mid-corner is looked at as about the dumbest thing one could do while cornering. Considering that drifting is roughly as hard as grip driving, it would simply make sense to not downshift mid-drift. I am going to scour all sources for videos, watch all videos intently, and record each time a driver downshifts mid-drift. Then, I will get back to you all with my findings. If I am wrong, I will humbly acknowledge so. If I am right, I will simply state that downshifting mid-drift is not common.

Brothaman- Have you read everything in this thread and the e-brake thread in order to learn about heel-toeing? You come off as ignorant when you make a statement such as "you guys go head, ill stick to clutch kicking." If you had been paying any attention at all, you would realize that heel-toe is a rev-matching downshift method, not even related to initiating or keeping a drift.

[malcolm]

good call grid. I am mainly a grip driver too. Well, I do drift a bit on entry to medium speed corners, but that's so I can take the corner faster and get a better exit speed. I love the physics of racing and drifting...

[pio_masaki]

Well everyone keeps mentioning downshifting in mid drift as being stupid, and whatnot, but from what I understand (and no, I don't know anything) heel and toe + a double clutch would be used entering the drift (not initiating it) and not really in mid drift..I figured it was a method used to set the weight transfer and balance, and the double clutch itself would be used to get into gear FOR the drift/exit, not so much to actually be used in the middle of it, since it would already be in gear, why would you need to downshift?

Yes I have been reading this thread, and yes I read the ebrake thread, and yes, I am still new to it and I'm still researching on the techniques used. I don't, however, have much in the way of drift videos to watch, short of a couple dvds that featured drifts, but not much in the way of driver technique shots.

I also wanted to mention something about Grids post, I also don't know much about high speed grip driving, and I could only imagine that Grip driving, while being equally difficult, or even more, is different from drift, so why would something like downshifting in mid turn being stupid in the grip driving world have anything to do with it being used in drift driving?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful or anything like that, I'm just trying to understand your POV, thats all. I would agree that in grip driving it would be a mistake to downshift in mid turn, especially with the weight being moved around while already on the threshold of the tires grip.

[SilviaLove]

After writting that last post i can say that i wasn't thinking straight. I did a search of some creditable sites to make sure though. Here is a good article <a href="http://www.driftsession.com/drift_techniques/heeltoeshifting.htm"target=_blan>heel to shifting</a>

[marshun]

Originally posted by GRiDRaceTech
Clay and Marshun- I just watched a couple of my drifting videos. Orido shifted mid-turn because he lost momentum in a Levin, and there was this one Civic drifter who downshifted mid-drift, but that was it. Otherwise, no one else shifted mid-drift. Keiichi didn't even do it in the clip from the Drift Bible that I have. Oh, but maybe he's not as good as you guys.

Gimme a break... shifting mid-corner disrupts both balance and power delivery. When balancing a car that is over the edge of available traction, I can't imagine why anyone would do it. When it comes to grip circumstances, it's absolutely an amateur mistake.

did you even look at the turn that keiichi is taking? the angle doesnt change! its a *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*in u-turn.

watch any option video with in-car footage of guys taking turns that go from one big sweep down to a smaller turn. they ALL down shift.

i've been drifting for 4 years and you think i dont know what im talking about?

[malcolm]

I think you guys are not understanding each other.

No-one changes gear mid corner, however, people do change gears while approaching a corner. The confusing part is that some people drift while approaching a corner, therefore they need to downshift while they are drifting and slowing down for the corner.

However, once you start powering through the corner (just before the apex, and through the corner), you can't shift, because you are steering with the throttle.

hope that cleared it up a bit...

[clay payton]

yooooo...

I didn't mean that people shift WHILE during the burnouts/wheels spinning drifts (power drifts), I'm saying this, and it's very basic:

approach a turn hot, say in third gear
start your drift using a braking drift technique
down shift to second and continue through the drift using power drift techniques instead of breaking drift techniques.


in a couple of the early drift tengoku videos (2 - 5) they have in car lessons with all the drivers, and you can cleary see what they are doing, and the method I'm mentioning is taniguchi's.

you absolutely have to heel-toe it.

i don't see how there is any arguement over this?

[Craftsman]

Originally posted by malcolm
Also, you can double-clutch on upshifts. This is only really used for gearboxes that have problems (worn synchros, damaged dog rings, etc), or in big trucks. I had to resort to double-clutching on upshifts once during a race, because the reverse-lockout system in the gearbox failed, and it went into reverse instead of fifth gear. reverse desinigrated, and the metal bits chewed up all the synchros, so I had to double clutch on all upshifts and downshifts to be able to shift.

Actually, this is very insightful... Thanks for the info.

Matt.

[bluballz]

ok, i guess there was some confusion here. it is very true that it would be dumb to downshift in the midle of a turn while grip driving. you would want to down shift befor entering the turn.

but as for drifting, a lot of times you are sliding way before the turn, so you would need to downshift inorder to complete the turn. try watch some of the d1 races. just about everyone enters the turn drifting in 3rd and downshifts to 2nd mid drift.

[GRiDRaceTech]

I watched quite a few drift videos and found out that in constant radius, U, or very high speed drifts there is no downshifting involved. However, when the vehicle is lacking power, losing momentum, or in a decreasing radius drift, it appears that there is usually a downshift mid-drift. Thus, I would say that a shift mid-drift is not uncommon at all. I will not say I was partially wrong, because that's pointless. I was indeed FULLY WRONG in my thought. Downshifting mid-drift is relatively common. Marshun, blu... my apologies.

pio- If you think about it, even in drifting the tire has a traction threshold. Even though it is over the "grip" traction threshold, it still has some traction. This is a delicate balance that usually should not be messed with, but then again, these guys are pros.

[marshun]

Originally posted by GRiDRaceTech
I watched quite a few drift videos and found out that in constant radius, U, or very high speed drifts there is no downshifting involved. However, when the vehicle is lacking power, losing momentum, or in a decreasing radius drift, it appears that there is usually a downshift mid-drift. Thus, I would say that a shift mid-drift is not uncommon at all. I will not say I was partially wrong, because that's pointless. I was indeed FULLY WRONG in my thought. Downshifting mid-drift is relatively common. Marshun, blu... my apologies.

pio- If you think about it, even in drifting the tire has a traction threshold. Even though it is over the "grip" traction threshold, it still has some traction. This is a delicate balance that usually should not be messed with, but then again, these guys are pros.

its not a problem. its just when i try to tell people theyre wrong people get bent out of shape about it instead of seriously considering what im saying.

[pio_masaki]

Originally posted by GRiDRaceTech

pio- If you think about it, even in drifting the tire has a traction threshold. Even though it is over the "grip" traction threshold, it still has some traction. This is a delicate balance that usually should not be messed with, but then again, these guys are pros.

I figured there was always SOME traction there since throttle input also gives forward input, but thanks for letting me know for sure!

[malcolm]

with any object, there are two forces of friction: static and dynamic. when you are gripping, the tire will have more grip than when it is spinning. When I have more time, I'll get into the physics behind why a drift is faster than total grip.

craftsman - no problem man, we can all learn stuff... hell, I am racing this weekend, and I bet I'll learn a load of new things.... or, at least, I hope so!

[RyanHampton]

Originally posted by malcolm
with any object, there are two forces of friction: static and dynamic. when you are gripping, the tire will have more grip than when it is spinning. When I have more time, I'll get into the physics behind why a drift is faster than total grip.

craftsman - no problem man, we can all learn stuff... hell, I am racing this weekend, and I bet I'll learn a load of new things.... or, at least, I hope so!

In what way is drifting faster? In slow corners or fast ones? Are you talking about rotating the car or "drifting".

Confuscious say: Tire rolling faster than tire sliding.....