second question.....

[jasonaries]

What follows are two snippets of my driving style. Feel free to make suggestions (specific, nitty gritty details) on how I could tweek my style to cross the line from grip to drift, if applicable/appropriate.


The high speed S-turn

Imagine two, small radius turns making an S. The first is right, about 80 degrees, the second left, about 95 degrees. A normal driver would take these at about 20 mph.

As I approach, I lay off the throttle and slow down from 70 to 55. When I'm really close on the outside line, I apply a light amount of brake to slow down to 50, set the turn, then simultaneously ease off the brake as I downshift into 3rd. This allows me to kiss the apex at 45 without upsetting the balance. In the middle of the S as I momentarily - like half a second - straighten out, I brake while pressing the clutch to downshift into 2nd, then ease off the brake as I ease off the clutch - again, keeping the balance right where I like. I grip around the 95 degree turn dropping from 3500 to 3000 rpm and then continue on my way…

The downhill/uphill, long left corner….

…I accelerate up to 45 before the first easy right that crests a "hill" or very slight upgrade. I continue to accelerate up to 65 as I approach a 90 degree, very long, sweeping medium turn. A normal driver would take it at about 30. This turn starts downhill and changes to uphill halfway through.

I downshift into 4th as I approach and set up on the outside about 6 inches from the edge of the road. I use the same technique as described for the S turns to slow the car to 45 as I kiss the apex. Soon, the road changes to uphill and I lay on more throttle and widen my track to come back across to the outside position at 55. I have a shallow right turn uphill ahead of me and can typically be up to 65 at full throttle in 4th gear. As soon as I straighten out, I switch to 5th and continue on my way…

So, there it is - all hangin' out for you folks to tear apart. Boy I can't wait to be flame broiled for this one. I can just hear it now: "...and you have a tranny left?" ...."my grandmother could drive an SR-5 faster'n'at!" Yeah, whatever. If you can get past this wonderful opportunity to tease, I'd appreciate your comments on how I could modify my style to better suit drifting in my SR-5's and GTS. You can't change me totally overnight, but if you can hint at little things I might try or do differently, I'd be grateful.

Oh, a point of interest, the SR-5 in the above scenarios is a stock restoration and has Michelin MX-4's which don't squeal a bit as I do this.... that might make me seem a little less incompetent.

[ACDSupra7]

Re: second question.....

Originally posted by jasonaries


As I approach, I lay off the throttle and slow down from 70 to 55. When I'm really close on the outside line, I apply a light amount of brake to slow down to 50,

The only thing I don't get is the engine braking part here. I don't see why you wouldn't take advantage of braking later while skipping the engine braking step, and then squeezing off the brakes until you have just enough weight up front to make the turn in how you like it.

Other than that it sounds really good. Thanks for the contribution.

[Ripper]

here, this might help ya

Drift Angles change based on which wheels are pushing or pulling the car!


Down Hill Drift, brake into the turn and steer into the corner until slight over steer is felt, then throttle out. Up Hill Drift, begin with Heel to Toe for even blend of RPM on the downshift, then turn in and apply throttle.


Drift Angle for late Apex, stay outside of the turn late, then begin turn into the Apex point. 90 degree corner, drift through the turn at a medium drift angle for correct Apex exit.

Medium Speed Drift angle, keep a good speed when entering for a medium type corner, don't enter too fast or you will lose the Apexing point. S-Corner, set up is key for this style of turn, begin the drift but always remember the exit of the second part of the corner is most critical and also to set up for the correct Apex.


if these pics don't work, try this http://www.driftclub.com/driftdiagrams.htm

[Drift For Food]

The engine braking/normal braking is done in a pair. You brake lightly, then shift down and start to let out the clutch. As the clutch engages, your engine will start to brake the car. At this point, you let off the normal brakes some or totally to maintain the same deceleration. If done right, you can get no change in feel between engine and normal braking. However, another technique would be to heel/toe and maintain the use of normal brakes. The toe will hold the brake pedal down while the heel will blip the throttle to rev match the lower gear. It provides a smoother transition into a lower gear and can save some more clutch life. It's just harder to do, lol.

Well, getting to the actually question in hand. It sounds like you've got grip driving down well enough. The hard part comes in trying to do the same thing sideways.

The first thing to understand is that the car will follow a specific line of travel even when sideways. You can manipulate this line as well as the car's orientation through various drifting techniques. This basically means you can pretty much drive your car sideways down a road, sort of lol, only while accelerationg or braking. At a constant speed, the laws of physics don't allow you to stay sliding.

Now, to initiate a drift, you need to get the rear end of the car out. This can be quite easy, and there are many ways to do it. There are quite a few posts about drifting techniques as well as some movies you can rent/buy/download that provide information on how to initiate and maintain a drift. Search for key words like braking, feint, e-brake, shift lock, power over, clutch kick, and some others. It takes a bit of practice to get used to just getting your rear end loose and sliding. After that, you'll need to control it.

Controlling the slide is probably the hardest part. It's all a balancing act. You'll be manipulating the steering, throttle, and braking all the time during a drift to control where the car goes. The combinations of each allow you to control the acceleration or deceleration of the car around the corner as well as the actually line the car follows, turn angle it takes. You're basically steering, accelerating, and slowing the car all while sliding sideways. This takes a lot of time and control. It's also very helpful to understand the concepts behind what you're doing.

One could write a small book about just the concepts behind drifting. I'll try to keep it as short and simple as possible. In a basic sense, it's a matter of weight balance and weight shifting. Besides that, it's the same as grip. The throttle speeds up the car, the brake slows down the car, and the steering steers the car. The hard part is that throttle and/or braking and steering are all done at the same time in varying degrees to control a drift. It's the combination of the aspects that allow you to actually control a drift. I really wanted to talk about it more, but I come to find it very difficult to just explain in words and still be short and to the point as well as coheirent to you after I get done.

My suggestion to you is to try various techniques in an open parking lot or some empty back road that has very good visibilty, little traffic, and is not dangerous to your car if you go off the road. Find one slow(sharp) corner to work on. The parking lot thing is the safest really. Start with a few techniques to get you used to your car sliding. From there, get used to controlling the slide and maintaining it for a bit and even in a small arc simulating a corner.

Start with the e-brake. If you've never gotten your rear end out before, this will get you used to the feeling. Get a little speed, start to turn slightly and pull the e-brake for a second or two. Get used to the feel of the car sliding. After that work on some steering with the e-brake, learn a little directional control and how the steering affects the slide. Later, work on applying throttle during the slide and the brake during the slide. Work on steering during both. In time, you'll be able to control the direction of the car during the slide both under throttle and under braking. As well learn other techniques to start the slide. Braking drift is pretty easy to do. Brake lightly to moderately into a corner until the rear end comes out. Then control the slide. Power over is simple too. Give it a lot of gas in the corner and the rear tires will spin and break loose, easier with a more powerful car. Feint is a fun technique to learn. You basically try to whip the rear end out by turning away from the corner to shift the weight of the car to the inside(in respect to the corner), and then turn quickly back towards the corner to whip the weight back to the outside of the car to amost throw the rear end out. This is actually done slightly before the corner. Other techniques involve upsetting the rear traction through the drivetrain. Shift lock(like your downshifting but fast to break the rear end traction), clutch kick(not too good for tranny/clutch), and e-brake all break the rear end's traction by upsetting the rear wheels rotation. All these techniques can be tired in an open parking lot as well. Just learn to start and then control. I guess you could learn to end the drift as well, but that seems to come more naturally, lol.

Ok, I still managed to type a lot, lol.

[jasonaries]

I LOVE SHIFT LOCK!!!

HOLY COW! I LOVE SHIFT LOCK DRIFTING!!! I have not drifted a corner yet, but I have been using a downshift into second gear to slow down fast in emergency situations for years. I love it because I can always count on the tires to keep rotating. If I just slammed on the brakes to avoid accidents, then I'd flat spot my rear tires and rotate the car in an uncontrolled manner. With that second gear downshift, I can count on the car rotating a little bit and counter steer or exaggerate the rotation as I like. Doing a 100 degree rotation to a full stop saved my copper car at a traffic light on day when some idiot slammed on his brakes for a GREEN LIGHT (duh!). All I gotta do now is practice this in a corner and experiment with adding brakes and throttle and I'll have my first drifting technique in my pocket! This is so cool. Wish I'd found this message board sooner!

I am most inclined to try braking drift in a wet, deserted, safe parking lot. I'm least inclined to try power over and clutch kick. I'm neutral on the feint.

Thanks to all three of you for replying. To answer your question, ACDSupra7: um.....let me just say "traffic conditions"....I was told to edit my post so that it does not suggest illegal activity...

I still can't believe I actually may have a shot at being a real drifter in a few months.... this is just mind blowing....

[ACDSupra7]

That's not what I'm talking about. He's making it sound like he's engine braking from 75-50, whereas it would be more effective to just use the foot brake down to about 55 and then lift off of it to get the right amount of weight up front for the turn in. It's just because engine braking is always going to take longer than normal braking, and unless you're turning and slowing down at the same time, I don't see why you wouldn't just use the normal brakes to cut down your lap times.

[jasonaries]

acdsupra7

hi again, ACDSupra7

I included an answer to your question in my earlier post. If you didn't spy it, then just take it for granted that I agree with you, but there are some extenuating circumstances regarding this particular S turn which makes it necessary to approach it in the manner that I do....

[ACDSupra7]

Oh, just read it.

=P

I feel you man. Go canyons! (Within the boundry's of the law of course)

[Drift For Food]

Shift lock isn't the best to use since it will wear down your clutch a bit if you start using that a lot. The e-brake will do the same thing and not decrease tranny life. I too was a fan of shift lock and powerover when I had my old Ranger, crappy truck. I didn't mind beating on the tranny on that old piece of junk. Besides, the tranny could take it, probably bigger than the engine and was meant for the larger V6. I pretty much only drift gravel cause my cars are stock and not the best suited for the higher forces of asphalt. That and I have yet to have a car either capable of drifting on asphalt or powerful enough to keep the tires spinning on asphalt. Tires last a whole lot longer on gravel too. The Ranger I had was an old '88 with the small 2.0L pumping out only 70hp, maybe 50 to the wheels, lol. To get the rear end to break loose, I would come into a corner in third, clutch in, shift to second, and let out as I started turning. This would lock up the rear wheels a little until the engine reved up and matched, and it would start the slide. After that, it was just pedal to the floor and countersteer. Even on gravel, 50hp at the wheels isn't much, even in second.

Another method was to just floor it and hope the rear end would come out, sometimes worked, sometimes not. In a more powerful car, powerover would work fine.

Besides that, I always stayed with my standards, braking and feint. The truck was crap for braking, very front biased, and the front liked to lock up easily, say half the braking force needed to lock the rear. Still, only light braking was needed. The main concern was shifting the weight forward to gain front traction and lose rear traction. If it doesn't come out, steer into the corner a little more and tap the brakes a little harder. I find quick changes to be more effective and moving weight. A fast stab at the brakes can do wonders when cornering and trying to break the rear end loose.

Feint is hard to get used to but works like a charm once you get the hang of it. It also blends nicely into other techniques to make drifting a bit easier to do. It just takes a little practice swinging your car back and forth to get comfortable throwing the weight around. In time, you should be able to come out wide on a corner and flick the car back inside quick to get the rear end to swing out. I find feint especially helpful on sharp corners when a lot of car rotation is needed in a short amount of time. The e-brake is another one good for the same tight spots when quick rotation is needed.

In time you'll combine the techniques to form sort of a new technique. For example, I've always put braking and feint together to start a drift and to promote car rotation. They just work so well together. You can do a nice wide, sweeping feint with a little braking or go into a quick twitch of the steering wheel with a fast single jab of the brake to get the car rotating and sliding. In my Subaru that I have now, this is probably my most used technique.