COMPUTER JUDGING For D1 Grand Prix (DriftBox)

[BooZTT]

Originally posted by Julian Thomas
Drifting is all about style, but what one judge may call style compared with a judge in a different country calls style may well differ.

- Style in drifting is the "character" which the driver has and his presence..not what the judge thinks. It wouldn't matter where the judge came from. Having a system like this would hurt the fans who love certain styles from others...I think you're missing the whole point.

I think this will greatly hamper the unification of Drifting, and to make Drifting as big as it should be, you need to be able to have US vs Japan vs Europe competitions. For this to happen, you need continuity. The DriftBox may well help in keeping them singing from the same songsheet, and anyway, the judge can decide to ignore the computer if he sees something spectacular, that's his perogative! [/B]

- It's nice you guys are trying to get in on the "drift phenominon" (as those in corporations are calling it..it's still just having fun to us), but the whole concept you are pushing needs to be re-thought. How long have you been involved with drifting and have you drifted before yourself? What makes Racelogic a subject matter expert in the like of drifting? Drifting to many is self expression..their style is an extension of themselves..or for some how they'd like to be. Making people perform a certain way just to please a box doesn't sound very fulfilling to me.

Also consider the number of small drift teams spread out all across the world, how useful and encouraging would it be to compare themselves against the best of the best? Their mates might think they look cool, but here's a sure way of seeing just how difficult it is to maintain those kinds of angles and speeds that the pro drivers achieve, and also gives them a reference to improve on. [/B]

- so you're planning to make a system cheaply like the G-Tech Meter? So obviously this goes MUCH further than just Pro drifting...do you really care about drifting or just mass marketing Drift-Tech Meters to all the ricers around the world to make some $$$$. We weren't born yesterday. Don't take too much offense to this..but be honest with us.

[Hubert Young]

May be we should also strap GPS sensors on motocross riders, skateboarders, snowboarders, figure skaters... But to this day such electronic device is not used at those events because the device cannot tell whether those moves they pull are graceful or not.

In drifting, using the driftbox is definitely going to minimize the emphasis on style, grace and impact. One thing I already can foresee is that the driftbox would strictly restrict the racing line thru a course. One driver can have a perfect line as defined by the drift box than another driver. Does that mean another driver with more grace and takes a more daring line is going to lose?Judging should remain subjective with guidelines.

[Julian Thomas]

I first came across drifting in Japan in the late 90's. I spoke to the 'king' (via a translator!) at a circuit in Japan whilst I was testing, and was very excited. Excited because this is what I love to do, and there was a group of enthusiasts out there doing exactly that.

I have been doing amateur drifting on and off for years, I'm not very good, but I love it all the same. At the moment I use a Caterham, and I think there are not too many of those around! I have had an RX7, a M Coupe and a Porsche 944 Turbo as well.

Everybody tells me the Caterham won't make a drift car, but with a little development and tweaking I think it could be a surprise winner. I think the DriftBox encourages people to test and develope their cars, so one years racing is not the same as last years, the stakes go up. I love the scope within drifting to use anything that is rear wheel drive with some power, that is my kind of car.

The DriftBox Pro is a loss leader, I doubt we will never make back our investment, we haven't priced it high enough to make any significant profit. I made it in conjunction with Option and the D1 Series in Japan with whom I have kept up some very good links. Our main product is the VBOX, we do very nicely with that, and don't need to make any money on the DriftBox to survive, I am doing it mainly because I love the sport, and also love technology.

We are launching a cheaper retail style product later on in the year and if this catches on and becomes popular, then great, we may make some money out of a hobby. In the meantime, the Japanese (who are passionate about drifting) have really taken to the idea, and will be using it at the very top level.

The Sport will not be harmed by making it a little more professional, and competitive, I am sure it can only strengthen it.

[Craftsman]

This is brilliant... I always knew this sort of technology existed. It was just a matter of time before it was implemented.

I don't like the idea necessarily though. Alex Pfeiffer does make a strong arguement. It's like comparing a 86 with 180 HP to a S15 with 550 HP... When you compare the two, you have to throw out entry speed out the window and some other factors. Style is what has to be judged... Some cars are just better adept at drifting than others.

[ALI]

Alex, I can see your point dude, but at the same time, I don't think anybody is trying to replace the judges. If for example Formula D tried to take up the Driftbox idea and present it to the crowd, then I think it would just be one more thing for the techie type people out there to put a number value with a judged run.

But for the folks out there who don't know what slip angle, or lateral G's mean, I can't see it meaning much for them. I for one look very much forward to being able to use a device like this for our own team testing and tuning. Coming from a road racing background, having true data to base your results on after making changes (either in equipment or driving method) is absolutely invaluble in helping setup a car. I can only see this device helping teams get better.

If you want to work on your coolness factor you could always bring a friend out with a video camera and review your runs one by one! There isn't any shame in that, and I can vouch for the fact that what may feel lame from a drivers perspective somtimes looks pretty cool from the outside.

Back to Alex, you've tested an "angle meter" it seems, what were your thoughts on it as a testing tool?

[AlexPfeiffer]

It works. I give it that. You have data that you can use.

My argument is that it turns a sport baised off of the fun and cool factor, and turns it into racing. Notice how all the racers like the idea of having data, this is cause racing is all about the competition against others. Drifting is more like skateboarding, everyone does the same tricks, but some do it cooler then others.

If i had a driftbox, yes i would use it. But as a driver, i already know if i get more angle out of one setup or another. If you need a box to tell you that, you shouldnt be drifting competitively.

And what will you do with that information, so you get your average angle, and your max angle. How does that make your driving better. You would need data loging on your car, wheel speed sensors, and all the rest of it to actually give you enough data to know what you should change. I can get all the information i need by watching my runs on vid. The visual aspect is the important part to putting on a show, not the data.

[BooZTT]

Originally posted by Julian Thomas
I first came across drifting in Japan in the late 90's. I spoke to the 'king' (via a translator!) at a circuit in Japan whilst I was testing, and was very excited. Excited because this is what I love to do, and there was a group of enthusiasts out there doing exactly that.

I have been doing amateur drifting on and off for years, I'm not very good, but I love it all the same. At the moment I use a Caterham, and I think there are not too many of those around! I have had an RX7, a M Coupe and a Porsche 944 Turbo as well.

Everybody tells me the Caterham won't make a drift car, but with a little development and tweaking I think it could be a surprise winner. I think the DriftBox encourages people to test and develope their cars, so one years racing is not the same as last years, the stakes go up. I love the scope within drifting to use anything that is rear wheel drive with some power, that is my kind of car.

The DriftBox Pro is a loss leader, I doubt we will never make back our investment, we haven't priced it high enough to make any significant profit. I made it in conjunction with Option and the D1 Series in Japan with whom I have kept up some very good links. Our main product is the VBOX, we do very nicely with that, and don't need to make any money on the DriftBox to survive, I am doing it mainly because I love the sport, and also love technology.

We are launching a cheaper retail style product later on in the year and if this catches on and becomes popular, then great, we may make some money out of a hobby. In the meantime, the Japanese (who are passionate about drifting) have really taken to the idea, and will be using it at the very top level.

The Sport will not be harmed by making it a little more professional, and competitive, I am sure it can only strengthen it.

I'm glad you noticed I wasn't trying to come across to harshly but I wanted to be up front and get the questions out. A Super 7 for drifting? You are more adventurous than I thought...haha! Good luck, those were built to stick! Would be interesting to watch though. The US is also "passionate about drifting" and contrary to popular belief you don't have to be Japanese to truely have skill or complete love for it. If you gave a country a 10 year head start you'd sure hope they'd be that much better. Drifting in Japan has been around since before the 90's but more popularly during the early 90's due to Option Video...we still have some single digit VHS's..haha. I used to live in Japan myself along with others on these boards (some of whom are still there) and it doesn't need to get too professional too fast...that just KILLS things. It starts to take the fun out of it..and just because the D1GP takes to it..not the drift culture as a whole (which commands 98% of the drift population in Japan) means it's "the Japanese" have taken to it. Just clarifying that. NONE of my freinds have told me about this device..and they are from all over Japan and run at various circuits and areas across Japan and Okinawa. Don't blow it up more than it should be...be factual.

[CrazyHawaiian]

When I first read this post, I had the same reaction as Alex. I dont like the idea of numbers being involved with judging. Like Alex said, drifting is about style and no computer or set of numbers can judge style. Different cars drift differently and some are harder to drift than others. Only someone who has used all the different types of cars to drift can realize this and use that knowledge when judging (no computer could ever know the differences). But once you said that the judges will kind of use that data along with everything else they currently use to judge, then I think its not that bad of an idea. As long as it dosnt replace them or become the primary means of judging then I like it. It sure is better than the crowd going "one more time" and somehow affecting the outcome. If anything, this will help drifting gain more respect with the rest of the racing community.

The only thing that worries me is the wireless part. I dunno what kinda wireless setup you guys are gonna go with, but I hope it has some form of security (like 128bit WEP or something). The possibility of someone attempting to tamper with that data during a competition is very real. It would be lame for someone to stoop that low, but its possible.

[Julian Thomas]

Sorry, bad choice of words. When I said the Japanese have really taken to it, what I mean is that the D1 Grand Prix series have adopted it, which only represents a small portion of the drifting population.

At a recent event we fitted the DriftBox to a cross section of cars to see what results we got. Surprisingly, the highest score was by the lowest powered car, and the most unusual. It was an old BMW E30 M3. He was also a crowd favourite, and got it so sideways and got it back again from beyond the brink on a number of occasions, you just had to love his car control.

I spoke to him afterwards, and it turns out he came second in the European championships, and just missed out on the UK title because he missed a round.

That car cost him very little, but some really clever tweaks, and awesome car control meant that his style was a winner. By no coincidence, he also managed the highest points score on the DriftBox because fast, smokey, totally sideways runs look very cool. (We have pictures of him in action on our site).

[Al]

Julian Thomas - I have looked at your site, it doesn't give me much info regarding the product.

Me being a Data Logging guy, I have own DL90 and I now own a DL1. ( http://www.race-technology.com )

This have given me lots of info etc... But based on what car I drive it gives me a totally different information.

Do you have more information about your product besides whats on your website? If yes, can you please email them to me at truenocoupe@gmail.com

I would like to read more about them.

Thanks
Al

[Julian Thomas]

Al

If you take a look at our VBOX products (www.racelogic.co.uk/vbox), you will get an idea of what the DriftBox is based upon. It is similar in function to the VBOX Lite, but with Drift Angle and automated scoring facilities based on virtual sectors. The VBOX Lite is like your DL1, but it's features are aimed at Manufacturer's rather than race teams.

[kidynomite]

NFSU2, go play the drift mode online and then you will see why this is a horrible idea. Now I know there will still be judges to keep it from turning into a manji contest, but it will slowly turn into that.

There is no formula for drifting, why have variables.

[my 1 88 u]

"I live my life 48 degrees/ 62mph at a time"

[Double M Star]

I can see how this can enhance the judging in any event. Which is what it should do.

are these data recorders also? Sorry if I missed some of the info...
I can see the greater potential of the data for other applications and tuning.

there is no need for anyone to fear the D1 judging being assimilated by a few bits of hard data.

It's an advancement for the sport... one step closer to making it more ligitamate... for the masses. We here of course, already see it's legitimacy as a sport. Many across the globe may not, yet.

[IwantanFC]

havent you ever seen terminator, obviously we can keep advancing technology with such devices as this "drift box" but eventually we will go to far and the drift boxes will turn on us and destroy mankind, its inevitable...