COMPUTER JUDGING For D1 Grand Prix (DriftBox)

[illegalgarage]

i think it would be fine for R&D but it should not be used in judging.

An example would be footballs instant replay.
Great idea many people hated it, many teams lost big games becuase of it.
Many years later the game was modified agian so a coach could call for a "review" of the last play.
Same idea with a new twist.
Do the fans acctually gain because of these rule changes?
Some will say yes, some will say no.
I think, you should not fix something if it is not broken.

Max

[Julian Thomas]

Don't fix it if it isn't broken, is a good way to slowly fade away, and succumb to competition. Whilst the sport is enjoying publicity, the manufacturers and big sponsers are taking note. How much money would they put into a sport which is so ambiguous? You need some form of accountability, and development route. Three years down the road the crowd will be watching, and say, hey, this is the same as last year, what's new guys?

If you want it to be based purely on "style" and coolness, then I reckon it will have a certain shelf life. If you are really want the sport to move forward, and grow into something special then more accurate scoring must be top of the list.

If I was watching, I would love to know who went the most sideways, who was the fastest, and who held the longest slide, its more stats for fans to talk to their friends about afterwards. If the technology is there, then won't the crowds demand it ? It's more value for money for the price they paid for their entrance ticket. If it was purely based on style, then why publish car specifications, horsepower etc.? It's because thats the kind of information crowds want to know, especially in these technically enlightened times. It won't ever replace judges, it will just give the crowds/competitors more information to go on.

[Double M Star]

Something like this will move it foward.

Imagine it frequenting the TV... Like NASCAR or F1 does.

The sport needs little advancements like this to move it. On screen stats as the drives slide by cameras 1, 2 & 3 while the judges comment on style and performance from their point of view.

Will it eliminate the "One More Time"?

Never.

Remember, this started off as a show...for fun.
Then as more people noticed this,, it moved foward into a sport, but more like the US's Harlem Globetrotters. More Show than Sport. It is now become more competative and more people are noticing it's validity as a real motorsport.

I'm looking foward to the future of D ... Sundays on FOX!

[fsr]

Put it this way: If I was competing at that level, I'd quit in a second if a computer where to replace, or even be used as a tool for the judges. It would only be one more thing to argue over. "Kazama was more spectacular, but Miki got a higher computer score. Who should win???"

The thing that separates drifting from ordinary motorsport is the entertainment factor. The show. Computers would ruin that for sure.

Example: In the UK they experiment with laser speed guns for entry speed. I just don't get it. At first I thought the high-power, high-grip cars would have an advantage as they could reach a higher speed before the 1st turn. However, I ended up having the second highest entry speed in my 170bhp AE86. Why? Well, the 400bhp guys would get more speed before the turn, but as the initiated a brake drift, they'd obviously loose speed, as they where controlling a slide at the entry. I was still accelerating with the throttle floored...

Just think about it. To get top score from the computer, the drivers would be forced to change their style to suit the computers scoring system. In the end, all drivers would look the same and drive similar cars. When the whole point in drifting is that everybody have their own unique style, a computer will do nothing but kill the sport.

After all, what would drifting be without Nomura's extreme corner entry's and clouds of smoke? Or Kazama's way of throwing the car into the corner, barely keeping the line as the car is way to sideways? Or Taniguchi's super smooth lines and angles?

In a year or two, someone else will come along and amaze us all. If we have computers, that will not happen. Ok, the judging is a bit biased from time to time, but so are the fans. We all have our favorite drivers. The judges too. And that's how it should be!

The drivers will take turn in being favorites, and winning is not the main point. It's about fun! We want the drivers to be individual. If not, we have no one to identify ourselves with, and the sport will loose interest.

As said before: If it ain't broke etc...

[kidynomite]

Originally posted by Julian Thomas
Don't fix it if it isn't broken, is a good way to slowly fade away, and succumb to competition. Whilst the sport is enjoying publicity, the manufacturers and big sponsers are taking note. How much money would they put into a sport which is so ambiguous? You need some form of accountability, and development route. Three years down the road the crowd will be watching, and say, hey, this is the same as last year, what's new guys?

If you want it to be based purely on "style" and coolness, then I reckon it will have a certain shelf life. If you are really want the sport to move forward, and grow into something special then more accurate scoring must be top of the list.

If I was watching, I would love to know who went the most sideways, who was the fastest, and who held the longest slide, its more stats for fans to talk to their friends about afterwards. If the technology is there, then won't the crowds demand it ? It's more value for money for the price they paid for their entrance ticket. If it was purely based on style, then why publish car specifications, horsepower etc.? It's because thats the kind of information crowds want to know, especially in these technically enlightened times. It won't ever replace judges, it will just give the crowds/competitors more information to go on.

If you are watching it you should know who has more angle. If Drifter A has 1.2 degrees more than drifter B I could really care less. You have to take in account of the cars and mods.

This will just make drifting into any other car sport where everyone has the same car with the same mods, and the final deciding point is who can sneak out an extra .5 degrees.

[Julian Thomas]

At a recent test session, we fitted the DriftBox to all of the guys having a go. As the test progressed, more and more drivers were coming up to us and asking about what their corner entry speed was compared with X, and how sideways were they compared with Y. Drifting is a competition, drivers are competitive, healthy competition fuels sport.

One of the best drivers asked me about his corner entry speed, and then went out and upped it by some margin, resulting in the most spectacular drift on the very edge of control that I have witnessed. It helped him up his game, and it was awesome to watch. Watching the same thing time after time can lose it's appeal after a while. To see someone go out and try (sometimes fail) to beat a score is highly entertaining, and results in a wide variety of styles, lines and techniques.

At the end of the session, all of the drivers were completely positive about using such systems to give them more feedback, they said it can be frustrating to perform what they thought was a perfect drift, only for the judges to go them low marks and for them to not know why.

The judges have the final say, they'll take into account what the computer is telling them, as well as what their eyes have seen, and make a judgement based both on their experience and hard facts, which, at the end of the day, can only be fairer to the competitor.

[fsr]

Well, that's a whole different story, as this was not a competition, but a test session for what I can only assume is non-professional drivers. I suspect that the result would be very different if you tested on the pro D1 drivers, as I find it hard to believe that Miki could increase his entry speed by more than 1mph without going of the track. It's not like they have a lot of margin...

It's like saying that Schumacher could suddenly go 10mph faster in a turn. That's just not how it works. These guys, hell, even myself, enter a corner at pretty much the perfect speed as it is, and it's not like a box could help them go any faster. I mean, if you can look at the speedo upon entry, I don't need a computer to tell you that you're going way to slow

The car tells you what you need to know, and if you can't feel what the car is saying, you have a long way to go before you can call yourself a drifter anyway...

[Julian Thomas]

This was a professional drifter, who has won a number of national and international rounds and placed high in the European championships. The DriftBox has also been deployed in D1 Grand Prix's in Japan, please understand this isn't just an overnight toy that's been developed for a whim and used when a bunch of inexperienced guys hoon it round a car park.

Schumacher uses data logging extensively to work out where he can go quicker, and he practices, and he checks the readouts, that's what separates out the professional drivers from the amateurs, a thirst to be the best and improve all the time.

I work with Formula One teams, and the drivers spend hours pouring over data to compliment the feedback they get from the seat of their pants. The seat of your pants will only take you to a certain level, you need quantitative evidence to get the last few percent of performance, there's a whole industry based on this.

It seems to me that nobody really knows the true definition of Drifting, there's a lot of controversy over what the sport is really about, should it be just an entertainment event without any scores? Should the low budget guys be able to cut it with the factory teams? Are the factory teams a good thing or bad thing for the sport? Should it stay at grass roots level? Will bringing money into the Sport improve the spectacle or dilute it?

What it needs is some kind of theme running through all levels so it doesn't fragment into a myriad of different formulas all with different ideas on what constitutes real drifting. Surely this won't be good for the sport as a whole? A certain structure and framework are proven breeding grounds for healthy competition, and maybe an automated scoring system that helps the judges in some aspects may lend this continuity, at the very least it will increase the competitiveness between the entrants, and that's got to be good for the crowd...

[fsr]

Well, I see your points, and I agree very much that the definition is a problem outside of Japan. The reason is very simple. The problem seem to be that a lot of people want to change drifting into something it's not. Why compare it to Formula 1? It's as far away from F1 as you can get, and that's excactly why it's so cool. Why reinvent the wheel? The Japanese guys invented it a long time ago. So why is it that the rest of the world don't even bother to try and understand the sport before we start making changes. It just messes it all up and create a lot of confusion...

The box may be used in D1, but not for judging. And comparing Europe, or even USA to D1 is just silly. The americans may have the budgets and the skills, but they still haven't really figured out the sport. Anyway, Europe will not be at that levels for years, so why use the box prematurely? Why not let the drifters develope a bit more skills first? Then they might be able to use the box properly...

Since you're comparing it to data logging. How many amature racers have that? Unless you're competing at a high level in a professional series, it's not very common. And if you know racing, you also know that it's rarely used to improve driving. It's used to improve setup. I would know, as I finished second in the 1995 Formula Ford 1600 Festival at Brands. I know how it works...

Please understand that drifting is not about structure and framework. We've got racing for that. If you want to compete within very strict guidelines, you wouldn't be drifting. Drifting is fun. Too much focus on the competition, and you'd kill it. Making it just another racing series.

I'm not against the computer for testing purposes and setup improvement, but using for judging is wrong. After all, have you ever seen Mr. Eccelstone study the telemetry to decide a winner in F1?

PS. I bet you a DriftBox that I've beaten your driver in competition

[Julian Thomas]

Maybe you misunderstand me, the DriftBox is being used to judge the Japanese D1 Series this year, this is the reason for this thread. I am not proposing anything, just informing people, and seeing what the reaction is.

[fsr]

Oki. Strange that it hasn't been mentioned on any of the D1 rounds I've got on DVD then. Either way, I still don't like it, and see no use for it. Not even in Japan. However, that might explain some of the strange results we've seen this year...

I just don't understand why everybody want to make drifting just like racing. I took a brake from racing last year to go drifting, and had a great time. Lot's of fun. But if it will be just like racing, there's just no point...

[Toycoma]

Originally posted by AlexPfeiffer
YOu guys need to think about this. Drifting isnt about racing sideways.

By adding sensors to your car that the judges can look at, then you may as well time the speed of your run and turn it into an average score. What that will do is eliminate the judges all together so there is no style involed. Once you take away the style, drifting will turn into dirt track racing where all your doing is racing sideways and everyone has the same car. Then we will just be another racing series.

Drifting is cool because it is based off of your style. The fastest guy or the most sideways guy doesnt always win. Its who can use their car the best and put on the best overall impact or performance for the fans as well as the judges.

it can't rate tire smoke either.
and you know why D1 and the "drift king" like it and have adopted it, because they are race car drivers first. Orido, Tanaguchi, Tsyuchia ect. a lot of the D1 drivers drive JGTC or other forms of racing. To them, its a great thing to know entry speed and angle. I think this is a great device to measure how good stock cars would be for drifting. (not nascars, stock cars from the factory) and it would be a good device to use to see if your new drift car is better set up then your old one but other then that, its of no use. People say numbers dont lie and all that crap, well numbers do lie when things arent recorded correctly and what not. and as for this keeping D1 fair and showing that it isnt rigged, thats bullcrap too. D1 one will still do what ever they want. anyone notice that the grap showing the angle was between Kazama (Kei office driver) and Tanaguchi and it shows that Kazama has more angle, of course Tysuchia is going to like the product then. it shows his driver with more angle. but that doesnt me he looked better the Tanaguchi.



ps, i hope i spelt all of those names right.

[Toycoma]

Originally posted by fsr

The car tells you what you need to know, and if you can't feel what the car is saying, you have a long way to go before you can call yourself a drifter anyway...

HELL YEAH, HI FIVE.............. ahaha. but in the end, thats what it boils down to. if your a drivers driver, then you dont need or want the box.

[fsr]

Just realised that I've made a huge n00b mistake, and actually overlooked the fact that I was on the third page of this discussion. After reading the first two pages, I can see that my post was completely useless. A simple "Whatever Alex says!" would've been fine

Sorry...

[Double M Star]

Think of it this way....

Let's say they take the DriftBox Stats from the winning drifters.

Use that as the base. Consider those stats "optimum". Then drivers who over/under the "optimum" range, which is based on what is considered a near perfect run, then we have changed a view.

I am for anything that advances the sport. If it makes the sport "more legit" in the US... cool. Do it.


But it will never replace a judge. Style points will always be a huge factor in the series, so no worries there.