(FEEDBACK) FORMULA D ATLANTA May 8-9th 2009

[tyndago]

I wouldn't necessarily say it was "cheating" or not. Because of how Formula D tested the tires, it will make every tire look like a cheater tire. Having a HOT tire read above 49 on a tire durometer is hard for any tire to do. Read earlier posts. You'll also find the true subject matter of all this:

So are you saying that there were lots of other tires that tested lower than 49 on the hot tire test ?

Handle your Scandal....

[Bebop]

So are you saying that there were lots of other tires that tested lower than 49 on the hot tire test ?

Handle your Scandal....

its pretty much known, all tires get softer with heat.

most "high performance" street tire will test lower then 50 hot

[APACHE-R]

So are you saying that there were lots of other tires that tested lower than 49 on the hot tire test ?

Handle your Scandal....

When nothing is being done to alter the tires (cheating) and the majority of the tires allowed in FD cannot stay above the minimum rating required by the rule, the rule needs to go. It served no purpose and is just going to result in the series becoming protestfest 2009, with drivers advancing on techinical disqualifications all year. I thought there was some driving involved in the series? Should the team that files the most protests win each round? Sounds like that will happen if the rule is not changed or removed.

[courantcom]

its pretty much known, all tires get softer with heat.

most "high performance" street tire will test lower then 50 hot

9.3.4 Tires must meet a minimum durometer reading of 49, hot or cold, at all times during an EVENT, measured using an ISO868 or ASTM D2240 compliant
Type A durometer.

Do you think that the rule should read:

"9.3.4 All tires to be used during an event must meet a minimum durometer reading of 49 measured using an ISO868 or ASTM D2240 compliant Type A durometer on unmounted tires with a surface temperature between 70-77 degrees Fahrenheit measured using a probe type tire pyrometer."

If possible, I think that having a few two person crews walk around the paddocks during an event prior to anything that involves the cars being on the track can go around measuring tires that teams will use and then applying an FD "seal" on them once they pass the test. As the cars pull up to the start line, the seals need to be there in order for them to be allowed to proceed.

I understand that this proposition could be a huge feat as one team can point to a stack of 16 tires...or more. This "simple task" may take officials well over a couple hours to complete. So, maybe this idea...as cool as it sounds...may not be totally possible.

Either way, this simple "rule" was put under the spotlight because Pat Mordaunt got outright disqualified because of it. I still do not think that the punishment fit the alleged crime based upon the circumstances. ...and because of that actual serious ordeal, this discussion in this thread is also a serious ordeal.

[courantcom]

In a round about way, a handful of people have hinted that I should "tone down" a bit here on this public forum. As I have mentioned before, I want other drivers to chime in and put in their two cents. However...we all already know that none of that is going to happen.

SCCA World Challenge has a forum that is only accessible (login and password) by teams and key individuals. Perhaps Formula D should also have such a forum on their own website so that more people can voice their thoughts. If Formula D doesn't wanna do it on their website, maybe Drifting.com can setup a section of their forum that's only accessible to certain people. That way, Formula D can honestly have a true form of "open discussion" available to the people that choose to participate in their series.

[INFO]

"Drifting.com can setup a section of their forum that's only accessible to certain people."

a private drivers forum was started back in 2005

[AlexPfeiffer]

I've got a suggestion,

The tires are probably still on Pat's car. Simply take a cold test and see what the reading is. Maybe Victor can send them out to get tested by the different people he has talked to. Its not going to change what happened at ATL, but maybe it will help Pat get his points back. I dont think it was fair that only Pat lost his points when other teams obviously were lower then thier rule stated and tested at the same time. In order for FD to be fair about it, kinda seems like ether they need to take away the points from those other teams or give Pat's points back.

[fast-datsun]

I have a Question. Since Teams and Driver have nothing to do with how hard or soft a tire is, and if the tire is on the approved list is FD going to remove the tire from the list or Fine the manufacure for providing Illegal tires to the teams? The manfacture is the only one who controls the tire hardness??????????????????????????????????? Soaking tires common in Stock car racing will on last a few seconds in drifting and not affect the hardness...after that...

[courantcom]

a private drivers forum was started back in 2005

I know about that forum. Wanna invite me? Honestly, even though I suggested that "drifting.com" do it, but one that's actually by the "sanctioning body" would be appropriate...because then, if the actual sanctioning body wants to delete something that they really feel is out of line, then they can -- quietly.

[courantcom]

I've got a suggestion,

The tires are probably still on Pat's car. Simply take a cold test and see what the reading is. Maybe Victor can send them out to get tested by the different people he has talked to.

As much as I'd love to do that...even take a video of me doing the whole thing, you and I already know that it won't matter because Formula D tested the tire when it's hot. Their rule says that the tires can be measured at any time during the event, hot or cold. Someone else posted it here already, but I do believe that it's hard for any "high performance" street tire to test harder than 49 "hot" on a durometer. If it's not possible for any high performance street tire to do that "hot", then maybe the rule needs to be changed. It's one of the things I've been suggesting. The rule needs to be changed.

Its not going to change what happened at ATL, but maybe it will help Pat get his points back. I dont think it was fair that only Pat lost his points when other teams obviously were lower then thier rule stated and tested at the same time. In order for FD to be fair about it, kinda seems like ether they need to take away the points from those other teams or give Pat's points back.

What happened in ATL already happened in ATL. I'm glad you agree that it wasn't fair. Would you agree that "disqualification" should only be reserved for very serious infractions? ...say, for example, if Pat were to be using tires that were NOT on the Appendix C list?

I'm not alone with my thoughts here...but people have suggested that you should be the Chief Steward. ;-)

[courantcom]

I have a Question. Since Teams and Driver have nothing to do with how hard or soft a tire is, and if the tire is on the approved list is FD going to remove the tire from the list or Fine the manufacure for providing Illegal tires to the teams? The manfacture is the only one who controls the tire hardness??????????????????????????????????? Soaking tires common in Stock car racing will on last a few seconds in drifting and not affect the hardness...after that...

The tires that appear on the Appendix C list were supposedly tested by Formula D at a prior date. Samples were sent to their office for the purpose of their inspection. I'm not along the position that someone was trying to cheat. I'm on the position that the testing procedure was wrong and that there were too many variables that can affect the overall durometer reading during the circumstances and atmosphere the measurements were taken.

[fast-datsun]

I agree with you... but to get testing done correctly EVER production run will have to be tested because ALL tire people know that there are slight differances in tire production runs. Pro race teams some times go throught testing of hundreds of tires to get one race week-ends worth of spec tires. I feel that holding a race team or driver responsible for tire HARDNESS is un fair as they have no control over it, UNLESS there are tampering with the tires, which would not make sense in drifting as they do not last that long. This seen like a no win situation for indenpendant teams as they get what there given..Full ride tire sponsored teams can pick out what they need... IF you going to have tire on FD approve list the Tire Sponsor have to help make sure tires are 100% legal as they have the control over them.

[J-Rod]

I know about that forum. Wanna invite me? Honestly, even though I suggested that "drifting.com" do it, but one that's actually by the "sanctioning body" would be appropriate...because then, if the actual sanctioning body wants to delete something that they really feel is out of line, then they can -- quietly.

If Formula Drift invited you to a drivers/team/staff forum, why would they invite you?
You're not any of those...
I think you have some valid points but even after our personal discussion for 1.5 hours and saying that you have some valid points and you even saying "tone it down" you're ranting on here like a crazed x-girlfriend.

Victor, much respect for your passion, interest and intent yet have SOME patience, you DON'T know ALL bottomeline...

Se you in Jersey and I hope you have a smile on your face like you normally do with your terrible tacky saying t-shirts, haha or sweaty in your Sparco suit ready to Camel Tow....
Peace and love,

[CamelTouge]

new rule: it should be the responsibility of the teams crew chief, tech, mechanic, or whomever on the team to thoroughly go throw the rulebook and abide by it.

if this durometer testing is such a big issue, why havent ANY of the teams bitched about it pre-season!? Most of the cars out there are new builds, or had to be adjusted to meet the new guidelines, why isnt the techs or crew chiefs complaining about this before atlanta?

my point is.. it is unfortunate that pat got screwed. I know pat as a person, and hes not going to manipulate his tires or whatever the case is. Tire manufacturers fault? possibly. But if this is common knowledge that the tire wont meet the durometer requirements on any brand (when its tested HOT), then someone should've said something beforehand.

This goes for all the rules in that rulebook. If you see a discrepancy, then acknowledge it before an incident occurs.

[Coiloverkid]

formula D: selective priviledges and punishments.

testing tires hot is like using a voltage tester on a battery when the car is running and saying there must be something wrong because it puts out more than 12V.