(FEEDBACK) The "DRIFT BOX" for Judging

[MonkeySlide]

I'm bored and the "Tiregate" scandal was a dead horse way before it got to page 12.

So I figured I'd provide something new for everyone to argue about.

DISCLAIMER: This topic is meant for people who actually like and care about professional drifting. If you don't then save yourself the keystrokes and point your browser to another topic.

Ever since the Drift Box made its debut the conversation of using it in competiton has surfaced every now and then.

Most recently it came up @ the D1 Anaheim event when D1 pretty much flung the Drift Box into the forefront by having its measurements count for I believe it was 75% of judging in tandem battles.

This made for some "controversial" calls and a lot of misunderstanding among the fans.

As a result of this the Drift Box has been the target for a lot of flamage, bashing, hell a bunch of monster ballad fan boys even made signs.

People have said the Drift Box "sucks", its "stupid", its "senseless" and I'm sure there are plenty of other insults that I've missed.

What I haven't seen is well..in my opinion...a solid argument for why the Drift Box itself sucks...

I mean what is the Drift Box really? Its an accelerometer that has been calibrated to measure speed, G-force, and angle in real time.

So why then is it the object of such animosity?

I plan on adding more to this obviously but I want to hear why some of you out there in forum land hate the use of this device so much.

So flame away and lets try to make sense of it all.

[OldSkool510]

Drifting is too subjective of a sport to allow electronics to play a role in the judging process. Unless you eliminate the human element 100% from judging, the use of the "driftbox" would be senseless.

There's more to drifting than what the "driftbox" was created to measure. Drifting is about execution and style, while the "driftbox" only measures speed, G-force, and angle. Shouldn't execution and style be valued greater than 25%? I think so.

Also 2 of the 3 criteria (speed and g-force) the "driftbox" measures gives the inherent advantage to the faster car, doesn't it? I think so. Drifting is more than just speed and g-force.

There are just too many variables that the "driftbox" cannot account for....

[AlexPfeiffer]

Where to start. There are so many sides to this topic. I'll just throw out random ideas.

I did get a chance to use the box at Nopi and its cool to see the numbers. I like the idea of being able to have some hard data. I think it may be hard to make an equation as to what is the optimal run.

You cannot take out the human factor of judgeing as of yet. I dont think the driftbox is anywhere close to accurate enough. The mounting hardware is just toss it in the car and with an accelerometer in it. Without the box hard mounted and wired in each car, there will be problems with getting bad readings.

Then there is distances. Many of the drivers are inchs off the apex while others can be feet off. The GPS sensor being mounted on the dash of a car does not put an accurate reading as to distance. The only way the box could be accurate as to judgeing distance from the actual race line would be to have multiple sensors on each corner of the car. And that would have to be for tandom as well. With different shapes of cars, in order to measure distance from other cars, you need sencors on all corners of the car.

Then there is the topic as to how do they find what is for the driftbox to use as its "optimal run". It almost looked like at D1 they used Kumokubo's practice runs and used his runs as the bench mark for others to hit. So his scores were higher and some others with different lines, even though still cool looking, got weird scores. If you must drive on a specific line to get points, then that line should be marked on the ground. Even if it puts you up to a wall. The closer you get to that line, you should get more points. Seemed like at D1, the people that got closer to the outside wall didnt get as much points.

Then there is the idea that each type of car in drifting is different. Not all cars drift at the same angles. Some cars are just better suited to get high angle numbers. I know I can get more angle out of my S chassis then out of the S2K, would it be unfair that not having to push the S chassis gets you a higher score then pushing a S2k to the edge of its limits? I think thats where having human judges are more important then using the drift box. The box is great for getting data on the runs but its still just a tool for the judges to use. I trust in the judges to tell me what they want to see. The drift box wont tell me more then what angle and speed I'm at.

[Slapshotnerd]

On the first clipping point at D1, the drift box was reporting angle scores above 90 degrees. Meaning that the car is literally travelling backwards through the clipping point. I don't think so!

An exciting tandem run is when the following car can stick the nose of their car within a few inches of the door of the trailing car and carry that position at-speed through the entire course. Usually, that will mean that they have slightly less angle and a bit less speed, and a lot of 'correction' through throttle modulation and possibly ebrake, but seeing side-by-side cars thru the entire course is what the fans all want to see.

Exhibit A:


Exhibit B:


If 1 driver is able to carry that "position" when trailing, and they are able to walk away from the other driver and leave 3-5 car lengths between the 2 cars thru the whole course, then that driver should win. I don't care who had more angle according to the drift box.

Also, as Alex mentioned, it doesn't take the driver's car into consideration. If a naturally-aspirated corolla is within 3-4 mph of the maximum speed of an S-chassis car with 500hp, that Corolla has an advantage in my mind even though he doesn't have higher driftbox numbers.

If you want the "numbers" to win a competition, go watch a race. Drifting is about style and exhibition of driver skill.

[Piner]

On the first clipping point at D1, the drift box was reporting angle scores above 90 degrees. Meaning that the car is literally travelling backwards through the clipping point. I don't think so!

An exciting tandem run is when the following car can stick the nose of their car within a few inches of the door of the trailing car and carry that position at-speed through the entire course. Usually, that will mean that they have slightly less angle and a bit less speed, and a lot of 'correction' through throttle modulation and possibly ebrake, but seeing side-by-side cars thru the entire course is what the fans all want to see.

If 1 driver is able to carry that "position" when trailing, and they are able to walk away from the other driver and leave 3-5 car lengths between the 2 cars thru the whole course, then that driver should win. I don't care who had more angle according to the drift box.

Also, as Alex mentioned, it doesn't take the driver's car into consideration. If a naturally-aspirated corolla is within 3-4 mph of the maximum speed of an S-chassis car with 500hp, that Corolla has an advantage in my mind even though he doesn't have higher driftbox numbers.

If you want the "numbers" to win a competition, go watch a race. Drifting is about style and exhibition of driver skill.

I completely agree with all of that.

[MonkeySlide]

So far the responses that I've seen is pretty much what I expected.

It looks like the main problem here is when the Drift Box is being used for judging tandem battles.

The conclusion i'm seeing is that the Drift Box can't measure what judges should be looking for when two cars are going at it on the course.

That is totally fair and I can agree with that. So let me provide another possibility.

What about using the Drift Box to aid in judging for single runs only? What do you guys think about that?

[Slapshotnerd]

I like the DB as a SPEED measure... in that it will give you speed over multiple sectors of the track. You can see who carries more speed thru the entire course, not just at 1 or 2 locations where you have a speed gun.

it's terrible for measuring angle.

[DriftSpeedQuoc]

Someone brought this to my attention, and it made sense to me. Lets see what you guys think.

So the Driftbox measures speed, angle, and g's. Speed and angle, ok cool, seen these around before. But g's? What do g's have to do with drifting? Once a car is set in a drift the g's are down. Versus a car that is still struggling to get set into a drift the g's are higher.

I think driftbox for speed and angle only. Then judges for line and style. But that's just me.


-Quoc

P.S. Mis-shifting on the straight in tandem while leading should be concidered brake checking.

[D1GP USA]

nice to see the feedback one here. let me tell you a little about the judging at D1 with the Drift Box. On site we reduced the overall score weighting of the drift box to 60%. This was calculating the speed, g's and angle throughout the various sectors on the course. The remaining 40% were comprised of judges scores for line and style points. The drift box was only used in the qualifying runs and not in tandem battles. Tandem Battles were 100% done by judges utilizing the drift box as a guide. In certain instanceswhere the battles were close or there was question, instant replay was used by the judges and a playback of the run via the drift box. The series will continue with this format.

In terms of where the box came from, Racelogic in the UK in conjunction with D1 Corporation in Japan tested for 2 year's with the box. Keiichi and the drivers worked hard on the development. Kumakubo has been using the box for year's. In fact, we were suprised when we went to Ebisu at the beginning of the year to see that all Team Orange as well as Nomura and several other drivers were using it though the Japanese series has not yet adopted the use of the box in competition.

In competition limiting the amount of the human element in any way is a win / win for the drivers as it is an impossible task for judges to judge accurately all the criteria they are responsible for.

[stedriftward]

nice to see the feedback one here. let me tell you a little about the judging at D1 with the Drift Box. On site we reduced the overall score weighting of the drift box to 60%. This was calculating the speed, g's and angle throughout the various sectors on the course. The remaining 40% were comprised of judges scores for line and style points. The drift box was only used in the qualifying runs and not in tandem battles. Tandem Battles were 100% done by judges utilizing the drift box as a guide. In certain instanceswhere the battles were close or there was question, instant replay was used by the judges and a playback of the run via the drift box. The series will continue with this format.

In terms of where the box came from, Racelogic in the UK in conjunction with D1 Corporation in Japan tested for 2 year's with the box. Keiichi and the drivers worked hard on the development. Kumakubo has been using the box for year's. In fact, we were suprised when we went to Ebisu at the beginning of the year to see that all Team Orange as well as Nomura and several other drivers were using it though the Japanese series has not yet adopted the use of the box in competition.

In competition limiting the amount of the human element in any way is a win / win for the drivers as it is an impossible task for judges to judge accurately all the criteria they are responsible for.

B.S!

[Drift Allstars]

nice to see the feedback one here. let me tell you a little about the judging at D1 with the Drift Box. On site we reduced the overall score weighting of the drift box to 60%. This was calculating the speed, g's and angle throughout the various sectors on the course. The remaining 40% were comprised of judges scores for line and style points. The drift box was only used in the qualifying runs and not in tandem battles. Tandem Battles were 100% done by judges utilizing the drift box as a guide. In certain instanceswhere the battles were close or there was question, instant replay was used by the judges and a playback of the run via the drift box. The series will continue with this format.

In terms of where the box came from, Racelogic in the UK in conjunction with D1 Corporation in Japan tested for 2 year's with the box. Keiichi and the drivers worked hard on the development. Kumakubo has been using the box for year's. In fact, we were suprised when we went to Ebisu at the beginning of the year to see that all Team Orange as well as Nomura and several other drivers were using it though the Japanese series has not yet adopted the use of the box in competition.

In competition limiting the amount of the human element in any way is a win / win for the drivers as it is an impossible task for judges to judge accurately all the criteria they are responsible for.

Sorry it was developed by James Hudson and Julian Smith in the UK , over months of testing at silverstone GP Circuit.The japanese had some input but it was actually developed here in the UK, by our actual top UK pro drivers D1GB/D1GP Drivers/ and our current JDM Allstars Judges

Some great feedback, what alex says about the clipping points is very valid, and as Quoc says it should only be used as speed angle metre,maybe as sector point and entry speed information for judgying and commentry
At the end of the day the judges should score the run

And as Jacob/D1GP said, no it should never be used for tandem.The technology is there to measure the proximity of a car to each other but between all the telemetry equipment and the proximity devices that JAGUAR MOTOR CORPORATION own the software to its over $100,000 alone

Dont get me wrong it is a great device and with some feedback like this it could be further developed, as we are working closley with Race -Logic here in the UK

[Sakesoba]

Don't hurt me, I like drift box

Drift box (i.m.o) is, to a certain extent, a step in the right direction. Where the majority of automotive sports are based on time (circuit, drag etc.) drifting needs data like everything else. As for its accuracy, I would probably agree w/Alex Pfeifer, in that it will take improvement and calibration.
Sure, drifting is based on 'style.' But let's try to think of this in a career perspective: companies want data and/or hard evidence. If I were to sponsor a drifter (which isn't happening soon cause I'm that poor), would I like to see "Good style" on a resume or "Corner 1: 103mph , Over 50 degrees in angle with 4 in. clearance" (or however the drift box will display it)?.
Being realistic, having judges is what makes drifting unique...so they shouldn't be going anywhere. Style should always be factored in...just not so heavily (because my style is different from your style).
And on an off note: Drifters should have their own theme music! (sure this isn't the wwf, but many of the people I bring to events are having a hard time relating to the drivers...a lot of times they just say, "I like him cause his car is silver" or "He waved to me, so I'll cheer for him") ya know...just appeal to the audience by using an extra 1 of the 5 senses. Heheh, I have yet to hear, "I like the way his tires smell/taste."

[Slapshotnerd]

FD used to have their own intro music for top 16 a long time ago, but it took too long.

Ask Rhys what his theme music was in Chicago in '06

[Cavi Mike]

How about why this thing is GOOD? I want someone to give me a real answer that's relevant to an artistic sport. Bringing a computer to judge drifting is like bringing a computer to a monster truck event or a museum. A computer can't judge style, only a human can. The drift box should be for the drivers, not for the judges, so they can get some hard data of their own to see how consistent they are or see the results of modifications, like a dyno. And last I checked, races weren't won by seeing who had the highest dyno pulls either.

[Slapshotnerd]

How about why this thing is GOOD? I want someone to give me a real answer that's relevant to an artistic sport. Bringing a computer to judge drifting is like bringing a computer to a monster truck event or a museum. A computer can't judge style, only a human can. The drift box should be for the drivers, not for the judges, so they can get some hard data of their own to see how consistent they are or see the results of modifications, like a dyno. And last I checked, races weren't won by seeing who had the highest dyno pulls either.

My answer wasn't good enough for you??

I like the DB as a SPEED measure... in that it will give you speed over multiple sectors of the track. You can see who carries more speed thru the entire course, not just at 1 or 2 locations where you have a speed gun.