(FEEDBACK) Who should Judge Formula D?

[Bebop]

You say shallow and non-exiting

I say fast, defensive, and aggressive.

And thats why I could never be a Formula D Judge

[Slapshotnerd]

You say shallow and non-exiting

I say fast, defensive, and aggressive.

And thats why I could never be a Formula D Judge

Cue Rhys Millen in Sonoma 2005. Cutting across the race curbing to try to pass Alex P.

talk about non-exciting, boring line....

[ontrack]

Since I rarely speak my mind on such things(cough) I'll just say.....
Lead car to follow prescribed line hitting clips and zones as fast and smoothly as possible.
Chase car to MIMIC(mirror) the lead car as CLOSELY as possible on the SAME LINE as the lead car- per FD Judges specifications "use the lead car as a rolling clipping point".
Stress and pressure being what they are in competition it can be difficult to do either perfectly. Understood.
However, how often is it that the chase car follows on a much shallower line(in order to keep up typically) and is awarded a victory for simply staying close to the lead car? Even though they may totally dive through a corner where the lead car has gone wide, in order to correctly follow the prescribed line. That, to me is NOT mimicking the lead car.
Just one example.
I know that judging is not easy. I know this isn't a race. I understand, coming from a SK8r's background,I know and understand all about LINE, AMPLITUDE(impression), SPEED, and TECHNICALITY (angle). So the whole "you can't know what the judges are seeing" line is total B.S. I've been there, right next to them, and seen what they see and can't, on some calls, even FATHOM what they think they see. Other times it's so close that a OMT should be the only decision and just doesn't happen.
These are my opinions as a DRIFTER, a SKATER, a supporter of Formula Drift and Drifting in general. I just want to see consistency. It isn't easy but it is doable. The judges are knowledgable and experienced and for that they have my respect and admiration. But, it doesn't mean that I have to agree with them.

[boxmod]

I have had a seat as a judge before myself, and as a driver (still drive now).

The biggest issues ive seen from judging in any series/events is:
Sometimes a judge...
- doesnt watch the entire run, fully focusing, and can miss seeing sometimes obvious errors (this happens more than you'd think)
- doesnt notice X (example:the steering correction) because focused on Y (example:wall proximity).
- start to compare to previous drivers he has seen... if he thinks he did better then the guy he just gave a 24 of 30 to, he will give him a 25, perhaps if they drove in reverse order it might have been a 27 and then a 26 to the lesser driver.
- misses something and makes up for it with an assumption of what 'probably' happened.
- are living in a fantasy world of what is real and what they wish (haha it happens)
- are able to see stuff fans cant
- have discussed certain things with the drivers as a whole, and judge accordingly and the fans have no idea that it was addressed in a meeting
- give extra points to a lesser car/lowre hp. in amateur comps, this would be acceptable to me because the field is usually much more spread out. in the pro world, dont bring the sword to a gun fight- bring a cannon.

in tandem the worst thing is when someone gives a shallow and low angle follow line and doesnt get docked for it. i also dont know why FD has lowered the standards since the early years... people clobbering a clipping point during qualifying should NOT be able to have a higher score than someone with a clean run even if they had a higher mph or a little more angle... you HIT SOMETHING = BIG DEDUCTION.

I recently had a discussion about D1 having impossible judging because the top 25 drivers are like 98.7-99.9. Like brought up by Slapshot, how can you really justify all those drivers are THAT close in a score. Even if they are really amazing runs, you need to make mistakes worth more deductions so the clarity is there between a 99.3 and a 99.4. FD is better about this but the style category is so flimsy since its nothing but how the judge 'feels'. Just seems like there could be fine points to determine a style score (1 point for big angle, 2 for 90*, 3 for past 90*- 1 point for being near outside clip, 2 for getting within a few feet, 3 for scraping wall/edge- 1 point for being real close on front clip, 2 for tapping, 1 point for X mph on entry, 2 for X+5. Thats 3 possible for angle, 3 for outside line, 2 for inside line, 2 for speed. 10 points total as an overall style.

Judging method I have in mind:
All 3 judge run as a whole, line/speed/angle and give a 0-30 score on their own, then discuss a style score of 1-10 as a group. This gives 30+30+30+10 and makes 100 point scale. Doing this you can REALLY see if a judge is favoring anyone, and also will have some collaboration (style category) on a drivers run.

[Mike Peters]

Just so you know I'm not picking on you, just going to point out that you know I put you in that judging position when I left, because your one of the most level-headed people I've met. Plus your kinda cute, and we're Facebook friends.

- doesnt watch the entire run, fully focusing, and can miss seeing sometimes obvious errors (this happens more than you'd think)

This is why there are 3 judges. "Hey I thought I saw this, did you?-j1" "Yeah, but I still don't know if that is a chic or a dude-j2" "Its a dude, dude-j3". Teamwork.

- doesnt notice X (example:the steering correction) because focused on Y (example:wall proximity).

Again, there are normally two other judges to ask about it. Teamwork.

- start to compare to previous drivers he has seen... if he thinks he did better then the guy he just gave a 24 of 30 to, he will give him a 25, perhaps if they drove in reverse order it might have been a 27 and then a 26 to the lesser driver.

This can easily be solved with an active working spreadsheet so you can keep your benchmarks on your mind at all times.

- misses something and makes up for it with an assumption of what 'probably' happened.

This has to be the #1 thing that has annoyed me over the years, and goes back to the teamwork thing. Everyone sees/hears about this all the time. "I asked the judges and they didn't know what I was talking about" If you are in the judges position, that is something you chose to do, and nobody was holding a gun to your head, if you can't pay attention, or ask another judge, then let someone else do it. Everyone on the team needs to contribute, and communicate, and it will overcome every problem you just listed.


The only redundant problem I have observed over the years is judges->driver communication, and judges/judges communication.

Handhugs will also help everything.

EDIT

I haven't been to an FD event in a while, but all the ones I was at the judging was pretty straight up, this was more directed at amateur/pro-am stuff I've seen, and a couple series that have gone out of business.

Thread kinda veered off track of FD judging. My only thing is watching the livestream sometimes, it seems there are many times where a OMT isn't needed.

[Formula D]

Guys, it is nice to see everyone giving feedback. It means you care and that is cool. There seems to be a split public opinion on the JR hit so seems you all can't agree as well and that is expected in this sport.

For record, the judges all voted unanimously in the favor of JR. Take that as you will.

All 3 judge run as a whole, line/speed/angle and give a 0-30 score on their own, then discuss a style score of 1-10 as a group. This gives 30+30+30+10 and makes 100 point scale. Doing this you can REALLY see if a judge is favoring anyone, and also will have some collaboration (style category) on a drivers run.

We have discussed this system as well, but the biggest issue with this format is that it has faulty mechanisms built in as it takes some criteria out of the concrete and objective and into the unknown/subjective.

By that I mean that technically Line and Speed are not subjective. They are defined and concrete. The line is defined pre-event. Speed is defined pre-event by the speeds in practice and then a points scale is determined and allocated to the drivers accordingly. Even Angle is also not that subjective though the Angle criteria is the toughest to judge because the judge is only using his naked eye to compare each car. The only real subjective criteria is Style and it is important that each judge have an opinion as you have stated. (Our goal is no more than 1.5 - 2 points difference in Style from each judge in qualifying. If it is more than 1.5 - 2, than something seems wrong. Since FD tracks all judges scores for each driver and each round of qualifying, we can see if one judge is off the other two.)

In your system if you put line, angle and speed into one 30 point structure per judge, the scores of drivers may be closer, yes, but then you would be taking two categories (line and speed) out of the concrete and into the subjective. This is actually the opposite of what you want to do. The more things you pile into one point sum, the more a judge can assess or deduct subjective points. This also complicates when a driver wants to know why he got the score he did because a judge can't go back and actually say, "oh I deducted 5 points from line, 6 from angle and 4 from speed" because in this system there is no points awarded per category, just a gross sum as a whole. You want to have the categories be as concrete and as objective as possible. Our current format allows that. This would not.

We can concede that to be ultimately accurate in our system the speed guns must work properly and the line judge must keep an accurate account of each drivers line and be able to show each driver where he went made mistakes.

Hope that helps!

[boxmod]

In your system if you put line, angle and speed into one 30 point structure per judge, the scores of drivers may be closer, yes, but then you would be taking two categories (line and speed) out of the concrete and into the subjective. This is actually the opposite of what you want to do. The more things you pile into one point sum, the more a judge can assess or deduct subjective points. This also complicates when a driver wants to know why he got the score he did because a judge can't go back and actually say, "oh I deducted 5 points from line, 6 from angle and 4 from speed" because in this system there is no points awarded per category, just a gross sum as a whole. You want to have the categories be as concrete and as objective as possible. Our current format allows that. This would not.

Wouldnt it be totally possible to have each judge have a sheet of paper that says
line 0/10
speed 0/10
angle 0/10

I didnt say they had to judge it as a whole, but that they get to judge all aspects. Its hard to judge no matter what the system, the whole 'drift box' gets knocked a lot but its actually a great idea. It would atleast be able to measure angles and actual speed. Line not as much becuase it doesnt take into consideration wall/clip proximity and "flow". However, it needs to get accurate enough and perhaps used as a guide/extra information. At D1 miami it registered a max angle for a run at 130* angle from me and I know that I didnt spin out and doubtful i was that far backwards haha. I don't know how it got that reading.

To me its easier to judge give 30/30 or 10/10 on each to a driver at the start and just take off points as they have less than perfect line, speed, or angle.

Another idea, you may already do this but I dont know...When I worked with nopi I was speed judge and we also instituted a entry speed bonus. We clocked people during practice and saw the highest few. Say we saw 70-72-71-75-68-73 or something.... 72 gets chosen as the bar. To not get a deduction they had to hit that 72 (discussed in drivers meeting, pre-qualifying) and if they went over it, it was a bonus point per mph (up to 5 bonus points). Usually the max of 5 wouldve been a speed that no one had quite gotten yet, so it makes sense to be 'perfect/mind blowing/awesome' score. So my sheet was 0/30 for speed, and 5 of those were reserved for entry speed.

I dont mean that FD is wrong or worse or better or anything, we all want to see the sport succeed and continue to grow. Just throwing out some ideas.

[hayaimoto]

You know what I think Formula D needs for it's judges (unless it already has this system) is a monitor that has play back capabilities on the spot so judges can go back and dissect the run in the judges tower, this will play a crucial role if in any case a situation like this comes up.

In regards to the run, Dean did slow down...either stalling out or trying to attempt a "rocket pocket" effect where he draws the fallowing driver to a slowdown during transition and then attempts to power out of the transition leaving the fallowing car behind? Very common in Japanese driving styles. From the look of the video he may have stalled out since miss shifting should have some loud indications either from rev limiting or grinding?

All in all, Sonoma always has good runs...allowing underdog drivers to give Goliath a run for their money.

[my 1 88 u]

You say shallow and non-exiting

I say fast, defensive, and aggressive.

And thats why I could never be a Formula D Judge

I remember when they removed passing from FD and made the follow driver shadow instead of run their own line. It was blamed on the driver level not being all equal. That's not a problem anymore so why do we still have that rule in place?

Fans want to see aggressive lines and attempted passing. big angle is cool for first turn entry.

And since when is is a penalty to tap the lead driver with your rear bumper, but not cause him to spin or receive damage?

[Formula D]

To me its easier to judge give 30/30 or 10/10 on each to a driver at the start and just take off points as they have less than perfect line, speed, or angle.

That is basically what each judge does currently except that they focus on one criteria rather than 3. From a brain management perspective, the evidence seems to support more accurate judging if each judge focuses on one aspect of qualifying runs rather than 3 or 4 depending on how you did it. In our system they focus on one thing and one thing only and then give their own opinion on style. As I pointed out before, we have tried to make each category as objective as possible and taking out the "up to interpretation aspect" out as much as we can such as with how we do Speed.

Another idea, you may already do this but I dont know...When I worked with nopi I was speed judge and we also instituted a entry speed bonus. We clocked people during practice and saw the highest few. Say we saw 70-72-71-75-68-73 or something.... 72 gets chosen as the bar. To not get a deduction they had to hit that 72 (discussed in drivers meeting, pre-qualifying) and if they went over it, it was a bonus point per mph (up to 5 bonus points). Usually the max of 5 wouldve been a speed that no one had quite gotten yet, so it makes sense to be 'perfect/mind blowing/awesome' score. So my sheet was 0/30 for speed, and 5 of those were reserved for entry speed.

We try not to put emphasis on bonus for things that don't take any skill but favor car build. For example, it really doesn't take any skill to push the throttle down and go in a straight line to initiation as fast as you can. That more favors cars with lots of grip and hp. Yes, it does take some cajones to floor it to a wall, but that is why we set the Speed aspect for more than one area in the course: 1 area near entry and another area where holding speed would be important.

I remember when they removed passing from FD and made the follow driver shadow instead of run their own line. It was blamed on the driver level not being all equal. That's not a problem anymore so why do we still have that rule in place?

Fans want to see aggressive lines and attempted passing. big angle is cool for first turn entry.

And since when is is a penalty to tap the lead driver with your rear bumper, but not cause him to spin or receive damage?

I have mentioned this before so not sure why it keeps being things of legend, but FD has always allowed passing. It was never removed. What one judge has said years ago is that he did not like to pushing passing because it almost never works when the lead driver is on line. It only works at specific areas of specific courses where a driver may go way off line and the chase driver can pass while in drift and on line. PASSING IS NOT OUTLAWED IN FD

Also to your second point, taping the lead driver with your bumper is NOT a penalty. See Tanner Foust/Dmac in Seattle. Like almost everything it is the degree as to which it happened and also the sum of the two runs. One can't point a specific thing and say this is why this person won. In some cases, yes, but not all. Each tandem battle is judge as a whole; both runs combined and a judges opinion assessed after the succession of those two runs.

You know what I think Formula D needs for it's judges (unless it already has this system) is a monitor that has play back capabilities on the spot so judges can go back and dissect the run in the judges tower, this will play a crucial role if in any case a situation like this comes up.

Yes, we do have this. Have had this for over 3 years. Full runs on monitor with sound, multiple camera angles replay for each tandem. In the case of many tandems that is why there is a slight delay in the judges decisions. Not because they discuss anything, as they don't but because they ask us to play back the runs multiple times, slow it down, etc etc. Then each judge will give their choice on a board that the other judges cannot see. We don't allow the judges to see how the other judges are going to score it.

Thanks for the feedback

[boxmod]

I totally agree on brain management point. And I agree it's really hard to judge all of it. I can't think of a real "best way" since my idea is difficult to accomplish and the current way still seems to just gives a strange outcome to me sometimes. I don't think any judge is placing bias at all, just seems inconsistent at times.

Our biggest obstacle from expanding the fan base and fully being accepted as a real motorsport is the difficulty in "why did he win?" Majority of people want some kind of data to understand it.

[my 1 88 u]

I have mentioned this before so not sure why it keeps being things of legend, but FD has always allowed passing. It was never removed. What one judge has said years ago is that he did not like to pushing passing because it almost never works when the lead driver is on line. It only works at specific areas of specific courses where a driver may go way off line and the chase driver can pass while in drift and on line. PASSING IS NOT OUTLAWED IN FD

Also to your second point, taping the lead driver with your bumper is NOT a penalty. See Tanner Foust/Dmac in Seattle. Like almost everything it is the degree as to which it happened and also the sum of the two runs. One can't point a specific thing and say this is why this person won. In some cases, yes, but not all. Each tandem battle is judge as a whole; both runs combined and a judges opinion assessed after the succession of those two runs.



Thanks for the feedback

http://www.justin.tv/driftstream/b/269890597

Please watch 1:11:00 Dai vs Tuerek and someone explain how that was a victory for Ryan?

Also 1:33:00 Tanner vs Tuerek. How is that a clear victory for Ryan? Was Foust penalized for jumping the curbing?

[Bebop]

Dai vs Ryan

Tony actually explains his reason for voting in Tuerek's favor. I mostly agree with that call, both drivers had crappy chase runs, but Dais was that much more sloppy hitting Ryan and loosing ground. Wouldn't be surprised if it went OMT (Andy voted for that) but I surely cant call Dai as a clear cut winner. Substantial evidence is what they call it in the NFL, unless the replay has that in your favor you wont be on the good end of the refs verdict.

Tanner vs Ryan

Now that one I personally had Tanner edging out. Both made mistakes, Tanner had 1 tire off course, and Ryan overshot the clip. I would have frowned upon Tanner's run if one off would have gave him some type of advantage... but it didn't. It actually took away from his line a bit, but he managed to stay in close proximity. Ryan on the other hand lost alot of real estate with his error. I would have voted OMT or Tanner.

[brainfood]

Only reason I opened this thread was to ask why we would change the current judges? I think judging is best it has ever been. I didnt read anything other then the title and the first post. btw kthx

[fast-datsun]

I think the judges have done a good job all this year and last year, BUT they really got this one wrong... From the begining of drifting in the USA Hitting the lead car has always been a 0/DQ So how could he go on to win. one or more of the Judges has benifited from that rule at one or more events when they were driving, , guess they forgot.......????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????? He was under power, slow, put under power, so follow car should have slowed more.........