(FEEDBACK) 2JZ vs V8 - For DRIFTING

[5150 Cruiser]

Hello,

Though I'd jump in here since we were the ones that built Robbie's 2j and know a little first hand info on Daigo's set-up... Both motor are similar and have made it through the season without any major issues. Robbie's motor last time on the dyno made @ 850 whp and 780 tq @ 30lbs without NOS. We use a small amount of NOS during the events to help with spool-up.

JTP's and JR's motors are from Roush Yates making close to the same power the main difference here is cost. The cost to build a 2j to make this kind of power can range but a fair estimate is roughly 15k - 20k the cost for JTP's motor is more like 80k. You can find these motors in off-road and GT road racing and are race proven.

Most of the LS platform motors in the field are in the @ 500 whp with a few like Tyler's and Dai's making more and cost in the area of 15k -25k.

Bottom line it takes more then just a motor to get the job done. This sport is great because it's a balance of power, traction, and driver. Whatever motor you plan on running the most important thing is longevity.

Cheers

Your cost evaluation really isn't fair. I could be wrong, but i belive both JR, and JTP use very fancy individula throttle body systems which bump up the cost significatly, and as also doing it all motor. Yes, there motors are proabbaly overkill as there set up for more endurance, lap after lap, after lap. Just as you said, there proven platforms that have been tested in off road, road racing etc.
Your don't need to spend 15K-to 20K to get 500hp from an LS. You can by a 500hp crate LS9 crate engine right from GM for $7,500. As most know there isn't one set rule to how you get power. Depending on your driving style you might build your motor different than the next guy.

[ASD Team]

Robbie's motor last time on the dyno made @ 850 whp and 780 tq @ 30lbs without NOS. We use a small amount of NOS during the events to help with spool-up.

JTP's and JR's motors are from Roush Yates making close to the same power the main difference here is cost. The cost to build a 2j to make this kind of power can range but a fair estimate is roughly 15k - 20k the cost for JTP's motor is more like 80k.

Bottom line it takes more then just a motor to get the job done. This sport is great because it's a balance of power, traction, and driver. Whatever motor you plan on running the most important thing is longevity.

Cheers

Just a quick fact check, without trying to get into anything.

JR and JTP's engines don't even make 850 at the crank, yet alone at the wheels. There were definitely cars in FD this year with much more horsepower.
Actual cost is right at around $50k, fully dressed with everything on the engine. That includes ITB set-up, dry sump pump, the works.

More expensive than the 2J per Jason's cost numbers for sure, and less horsepower. But I can't put a 2J in a Ford Mustang

The same engines were in both cars all season, all we did was check the valve clearances, change the oil, and put gas in the tank.

I agree with Jason's last comment 100%. Whats under the hood is only a part of the equation. If it wasn't, those two ASD Mustangs wouldn't have won four out of seven FD events this year.

People get too wrapped up in the horsepower numbers I think.

Congrats to Daigo and his team for winning the championship this year. It was a great battle down to the wire, and l expect it will be again next year too.

[Slapshotnerd]

Just a quick fact check, without trying to get into anything.

JR and JTP's engines don't even make 850 at the crank, yet alone at the wheels. There were definitely cars in FD this year with much more horsepower.
Actual cost is right at around $50k, fully dressed with everything on the engine. That includes ITB set-up, dry sump pump, the works.

More expensive than the 2J per Jason's cost numbers for sure, and less horsepower. But I can't put a 2J in a Ford Mustang

The same engines were in both cars all season, all we did was check the valve clearances, change the oil, and put gas in the tank.

I agree with Jason's last comment 100%. Whats under the hood is only a part of the equation. If it wasn't, those two ASD Mustangs wouldn't have won four out of seven FD events this year.

People get too wrapped up in the horsepower numbers I think.

Congrats to Daigo and his team for winning the championship this year. It was a great battle down to the wire, and l expect it will be again next year too.

Out of curiosity, how much work (beyond the cost of parts) would it be to take a Ford crate motor and bring it up to JTP / JR spec? How does the size / configuration of the motor compare to the LS-based setup? Would it be easily adaptable to a conversion? Your shop is one of the few that has worked with both in the drifting world.

I ask because with this growing involvement from Ford for next season, it would be interesting to see if Ford starts to make these motors more available for swaps and conversions to try and make an impact on all the LS motors powering non-Chevy cars on the grid.

[ASD Team]

Already working on it Jacob.

The 427 engine in the RTR-D customer spec 2013 Mustang drift car is a 600HP all aluminum Ford crate engine. We modify it for EFI, have our own CNC machined aluminum engine plate and a bunch of other parts designed and manufactured in house to make it more drift friendly. We're already putting those engines in customer cars. I think MSRP on those from Ford is around $13k.

But what makes more sense for most people I would think is the 363 cubic inch engine based on the Boss 302 block. Its a short deck height so a very small compact engine physically. All the same drift specific developed parts fit on it from the 427 package and we're currently building a 240 swap for that engine on our house "play" car. That engine is 500HP as a Ford crate engine and MSRP around $8k.

[Slapshotnerd]

Already working on it Jacob.

The 427 engine in the RTR-D customer spec 2013 Mustang drift car is a 600HP all aluminum Ford crate engine. We modify it for EFI, have our own CNC machined aluminum engine plate and a bunch of other parts designed and manufactured in house to make it more drift friendly. We're already putting those engines in customer cars. I think MSRP on those from Ford is around $13k.

But what makes more sense for most people I would think is the 363 cubic inch engine based on the Boss 302 block. Its a short deck height so a very small compact engine physically. All the same drift specific developed parts fit on it from the 427 package and we're currently building a 240 swap for that engine on our house "play" car. That engine is 500HP as a Ford crate engine and MSRP around $8k.

I'm REALLY excited to hear this

I'm admittedly not as technical as some out there, but I like seeing variety. Having a $10k turnkey engine program will go a long way. I can see that being a hot item!

[theSidesweep]

^ Very interesting. Definitely excited to see how this might impact the current field of LS-powered platforms.

[Piner]

I like how people are attributing Daigo's win to the engine that he has and really to be honest (As a JZ lover/owner myself) I actually think it was about 80% of the reason his driving was so "questionable" this year. I think alot of what the other drivers took as "playing games" was simply Daigo driving around the lag. Its been obvious all year he has been fighting the car's power delivery. I've seen him drive and had a ride along in japan and he was 100% smoother than what I've seen from him in FD.

Now having said that Im not sure there are too many people out there who would be able to do the same with that setup. Really increases my respect for Daigo even more. To take a car that is that difficult to drive and do what he has done in tandem is extraordinary. I think people who don't realize this are getting too caught up in the numbers. Yeah its alot of power but do you really think if he had "only" 650whp in a more responsive car that he wouldn't have been as competitive? I mean he runs the same line in his 350hp JZX90 missile as he does with his 800hp jzx100 D1 car at Ebisu south.


Most of the courses in FD having good low end tractablity is a very favorable thing. So I still think despite Daigo's results the V8 (Or any other torque laden configuration) is still king and will be for the foreseeable future.

[ASD Team]

Just from the outside looking in, with no real information to back it up excepting being around FD since Long Beach 2006, I think you could be correct Piner.

We ran against Daigo in China, and it was like driving against a completely different driver when he was in a different car. It was one of the best tandem battles I've ever seen in my life, no exaggeration. JR and Daigo both blew my mind in that battle with JR squeaking out the win. Daigo obviously has huge talent, and with no disrespect intended to his team whatsoever, he has appeared to do an amazing job this year driving around the power delivery. After watching and thinking about it all year - after all we considered Daigo's team to be one of our biggest challengers so I was paying particular attention - that is the conclusion I personally came to. Be it right or wrong.

It certainly created challenges we hadn't seen before when we were in the chase position, on a number of occaisions this year. I felt we could match the outright speed of the 2J, but the different style of wheel speed application in what was to "our normal FD series" unusual areas of the track certainly caught us out on numerous occaisions when chasing him.

I think this is why some drivers considered his style dirty. I have huge respect for both Daigo and his team and think that is certainly not the case. Moving forward I think it will be up to the FD series to decide whether other drivers adopt a similar style, having seen the potential advantage in tandem when in the lead position, or whether FD makes a concious decision to attempt to judge against a difficult car to follow - not the driver.

Relevant to the 2J vs V8 discussion here, the more power made with a turbo car the more likely the lag issue becomes. Obviously the Achilles team is adding nitrous to counter the problem, props to them for the seemingly partial solution. In time, I think it will be FD themselves, and how they decide to progress their series in regard to tandem battles, that may determine whether the most competitive engine solution is a 2J style turbo engine with big power and potential lag / throttle / wheelspeed challenges or an N/A V8 with a broader torque curve but less power overall.

This is just my opoinion of course, based on little to zero knowledge of the Achilles team's program. I could be completely wrong, and in no way saying they are not doing a great job. They won a lot of tandem battles this year and won the championship, big props to Daigo and their team. No one can deny they didn't come over here and do a fantastic job as a team and with the 2J platform.

[rtype16]

Where is this 500 horsepower number coming from? You guys do realize that you can make 500hp reliably all day on a stock 2JZ with a larger turbo?

[vvtisupra]

yah but you'll never get the adherent torque curve even with nitrous or anti lag

[Slapshotnerd]

Where is this 500 horsepower number coming from? You guys do realize that you can make 500hp reliably all day on a stock 2JZ with a larger turbo?

Like Aasbo in 2010?

I think Aasbo's Supra is a perfect example of what you can do with a motor that's built appropriately.

Nobody FORCED Daigo to build a twitchy / laggy setup. He did that on his own accord. Thus, if he has to make adjustments to 'drive around' the lag, he should be punished just like the drivers who have small turbo's and have to correct when they 'fall out of boost'.

Matt field's entry speeds were 7 to 8 mph slower than Saito on his lead run. But he wasn't punished for it, as his qualifying runs were slower. On the same accord, watching Field keep up with Saito on the chase run knowing he entered 7-8 mph slower should be rewarded... wait, wrong thread

[Piner]

Im not saying that Daigo should be given a bye because he was driving around the lag, I was just trying to point out the obvious that the his engine setup had less to do with his performance than some are making it out to be. Some people act like "2jz just won the championship!!!". When really it was Daigo's driving that did it. If he had been in a V8 car people wouldn't be making as big a deal about what engine he had.

To me its still advantage V8 for the majority of tracks