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Ghost i have no problem with the show per say, However i refuse to have any dealings with anything this man touches. I simply dont like his attitude about drifting and cars in general. And i dont like his assumption that we should all be greatful that he is gracing us with his presence. I want the show to succeed but i want it to do so with out this gentlemen's envolvement.
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I feel misrepresented by that show because of his envolvement.Comment
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I saw the show today. It was pretty decent for a domestic show featuring drifting. They showed some D1 stuff, the GTO, some JGTC coverage, and a practice day of the D1.
The first thing you have to understand about this show, its that the US TV channels dont care about the quality of the shows, they care about the $$ sponsors spend. That is why we'll never get a lot of good car shows on TV. There are a few, but they is none that focuses on drifting.
Being that professional drifting is relatively new in this land of drag racers, one would expect the same kind of formula they use for drag racing shows. They have a Blonde that introduces each segment. Some race coverage, and like a million commercials about some shitty products.
Id say give the show a break, its a decent way to gain coverage.
Now, what with the deal on how the media depicts drifters? That is some DUMB fear. If you are afraid of being labeled, you might as well sit on your bed all day. This country is driven by a racist media, so deal with it and drift. Dont pay attention to what people might or not say, that is not important.
I dont approve of a baycott, because its a small TV show that if it continues to provide that kind of material it will fail.
About Mr. Lieberman? I dont know the guy in person, and probably never will (not that I care to) but being one of the technical directors of The Fast & The Furious movie doesnt speak highly of you.
Now stop bitchin and whining and go drifting.Comment
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Well I'm outta here. I'm going to the Sams Club parking lot, were I will enjoy drifting in my own little way. See you later everybody.
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in.Comment
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It's not about whether Lieberman is a good guy or not.
I personally don't think we should even boycott Redline TV... I think we should watch it, and call the producer to cut Lieberman.
I don't like the guy's attitude about business. It's like we're all here for him. We all want to hand our cash to this guy. That's his attitude. Look at his array of cars. He's not a Japanese import driver. He's too good for us.
RJDeVera and all the drivers that we come across on these forums are badass. RJ is all about the culture. If he was a culture director for that TV show, I'm sure it'd be more realistic.
Craig doesn't give a crap about us. Ghost, I know what you're saying and why you're saying it. I agree to a point. But Craig Lieberman needs to go into hiding if he wants to keep his job... His comments are insults to those of us who really care. He calls us "kids". Sure I may be 20 years or 10 years younger than the guy, but that's total disrespect to people who buy the products that he promotes.
As for me and hopefully the rest of you, we will not buy any Magnaflow Products ever.
I'm pissed off even though I'm not directly related here because he comes into our house and says he's more qualified to talk and deal with things than we are. He might be more qualified, but he could have used better words to say them than spitting out his qualifications. He shows no respect to his consumers.
As for me, I will tell my friends never to buy Magnaflow anything until Craig either shuts up or leaves Magnaflow...
Matt.Comment
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Actually in a PM craig brags to me that magnaflow wont care if we boycott them because htey dont make parts for the 86 or S13.
Which of course just makes the whole thing look worse. Maybe its just Lieberman shooting his mouth off. Im sure the good people at Magnaflow care abit more then he lets on. Its a hell of a way to promote a product, Insult everyone and tell them they dont mater and that your so much better then them. And i welcomed this guy warmly originally, but after seeing the truth about this guy, reveiled by his own comments i desided i couldnt just sit idly by, the least i can do is this little boycott. The show its self isnt bad, but they need to gag Liberman or end there connection with him. Eitherway i no longer wish to have any dealings with that man. Maybe you would go to business with him Ghost, but your patience is alot greater then mine, I on the otherhand couldnt put up with him and indeed would never have any professional or personal dealings with him.Comment
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May I set the record straight
NissanGuy:
May I point out to all reading that my PM explained to you that since MagnaFlow does not make systems for may drift cars, we are doing it to enthusiastically support the sport.
It wasn't bragging, as you claim, it was an attempt to prove to you that, despite some claims, we are not in it for "the money." Quite the opposite, we have spent a ton of money on it and we feel good about giving back to the sport, even if many hardcore JDM companies are not in a position to do so.
I am however pleased that you are at least open minded enough to ignore your own boycott and to have watched the show. I've received some helpful input, input I intend to share with the Redline creative team.
Please also let me point out a couple of things that you may find helpful to set the record straight;
RJ is not currently involved with the show, so please, do not attack him in anyway...his connection is solely that as an enthusiast who, like many of you, wants to see the good stuff.
Also, with respect to Redline's production team, there are several people involved. I hope that everyone will give credit where credit is due (to the team), although I'm sure a select few will blame me exclusively for wherever we fall short of expectations...goes with the territory, I guess.
Lastly, I'm glad to see that many people who were skeptical at first have the second program to be an improvement over the first and have further realized that since 99% of this forums' users don't know me, its' difficult to accurately judge.
I'm proud of Redline because unlike F&F, I actually have a say in the content...a large say. I care how the program looks and hopefully, with the help of people who care as much as I do, including forum members, we can turn out a great product.
I've said it before, let me just toss it out there again: I've never seen another show's production team so actively seek out guidance from the target audience. I hope, if nothing else, the gesture is worth something to even the most jaded.
Keep the ideas flowing.Comment
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ive not seen this show but from what ive read of its layout it reminds me of a few euro shows based around tuning. none went over 2 sesions if your wondering
i have nothing against CL and im happy that he feels TF&TF was a mess. but calling your targit markit kids is not your wisest move.
when/if it hits the UK like pimp my ride and 2nr TV i will watch it purly to see how it effects the small uk scene.
to me the only car show thats every worked is Top Gear on the BBC its not got a huge sponsor. the hosts dont clame to be auto gods 1 is a ex-racer 1 is a expert on luxery cars and the other is the main host who is funny and takes rather odd chalenges and reviews new cars and then thiers the stig a mystery driver who puts each car to the test on thier track and thier times are put on a leader board plus lots lots more and best of all its funny so take note CL if you dont clame to be the best and dont focus on one area (just drifting) and try to have some fun with out using streo types of young adults it should be ok
thats my view any wayComment
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Welcome, from the UK
I very much enjoy the UK scene....I often read MaxPower, Redline, OpGezet, ADDX and other titles and I think the scene over there is huge. I'm actually pretty tight with a couple of editors from those fine titles....great people, great magazines.
Glad to see the UK is watching what we do here...some of us certainly watch what is done there. For those of you who haven't had the chance, check out some folks on www.gtr.co.uk I believe...crazy people with wild cars.
BlitZ: If you get the chance, please read all of my posts, especially those leading up to page 12 and on page 17. I think I was nice right up to the point where it was time to be more firm, but you be the judge.
I would love to hear your feedback on what you thought of those other shows with one caveat: try to critique them predicated on how true they were to their specific audience, keeping in mind that drifters most likely don't care for Pimp My Ride, while pimps most likely didn't care for Super 2nR.Comment
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well, can't really "judge" craig and his show Redline TV, cuz i have never watched it (due to not have cable reasons). although i don't really have anything against craig, my decision is not to vote. BUT if i DO vote, i'll tell you guys what i vote for.Comment
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I PM'ed this to Craig Lieberman
If you care to change many people on this boards opinions about you just stick around and participate in other discussions. Post some pics and video of what you think we would be interested in seeing, inform us on events or products you wish us to pay attension to, give advice in the tech session if you are qualified. The more we see your name around here not just fending off negative comments but getting to know the people that subscribe here, the more connections you will make, the better you will serve your own and investers interest.
If you do these things you will see how quickly you will gain respect amongst subscribers of this board.Comment
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Well, for me, I'm getting alot more positive view for you Craig since all the comments that you are saying are positive.
Why couldn't we have just started off like this and avoided the whole confrontation? I know you hate me and think I'm a jerk kid. That's prolly not going to change.
But my point, I hope that you keep the positive comments up and continue to build a positive relationship with us.
I unlike the guy above me do not expect you to stick around. I do understand that you have a bigger life than and a business that you must take care of. I just ask that you do not consider yourself superior next time...
Matt.Comment
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And I'm saying it would be good for his business to build grassroot relationships, via us.Comment
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The Arguement.. And why i want no dealings with Lieberman.
This was the first post i took issue with. Fient had honest concerns about the direction this gentlemen may take drifting based on what happened to other sports. And in response he attempted to reduce fient's concerns to nothing more then mindless prattle of a closed minded fool. I was not pleased. I was especialy angry when he claims that fast and the furious is why drifting is popular, and brags that his work is what allowed people like microsoft to put money into racing an dother corporate sponsors! yeah! just what drifters want! money from people like microsoft who have nothing to do with racing! kick *Censored**Censored**Censored*!Originally posted by craiglieberman
He's more polite than I am, so let me address one person in particular: feint.
<b>Dude, you're a hater, plain and simple. You don't a THING about what you're talking about.</b>
FYI: In the mid 80's, I was street racing with my Datsun Z cars <b>before any of you ever heard the term "import."</b>
<b>FYI: I was drifting before it was called drifting...it was called "powersliding" and yes, on a deserted canyon road. The year? 1986, so don't accuse me of being in it for a buck, I've paid my dues in blood, sweat, experience and traffic tickets. </b>
FYI: The Skyline was NEVER built to be fast, it was built as a sponsorship marketing tool for the companies involved...an extreme example of the best tuner car around with some of the best most exotic stuff around. 99% of the stuff on that car was straight from Japan. The APC sticker from the movie was a paid product placement deal, so if you think APC sucks, email them, not me. Do you cry to Jeff Gordon if you don't like DuPont paint? <b>I was paid very handsomely to build the car this way</b>, and I enjoyed every minute of it and I would do it again. Sponsors got value, it was on the cover of a dozen magazines worldwide so I guess you could say I did my job. Don't like it? Great...go buy your own and 'show me how it's done.' Otherwise, try to understand the concept of a purpose built car: you don't cry to drag racers telling them that their cars don't drift well, right? Those are purpose built cars, just like my Skyline was.
<b>FYI: My 'fast' car is parked in my garage...a 550hp 996TT and yes, I've had it at both the drag strip and Willow Springs. Paid for with money I made from my work consulting for companies within the industry.</b>
<b>Now, what are you credentials? How many magazine cover cars have you built? How many companies have hired you as a consultant? What racing credentials do you hold? How many race cars have you built? Until the answer is at least "two" to each of these questions, you'll forgive me if I dismiss the rest of your posts as the opinions of someone who has no real experience. </b>
<b>so quit your mindless whining about how WE did XXX....if you think F&F did all this, you're looking at the negative and not the positive. This makes you narrow minded in every sense of the word.</b>
For the idgits who still insist that F&F brought down "the man" on street racing, I say "good." If you're dumb enough to participate in illegal activities, you're asking for it. If you're dumb enough to do it right after such a movie comes out, you're dumber yet. If you're even dumber to allow yourselves to be videotaped in the process, congrats, you and R Kelly have something in common. ("oh, I'd never do that.") Yeah, right. The video stores are filled with DVD's of dumba$$es that do it for FREE. Smart, real smart.
As for the "one positive" thing the movie has created, I can name 25, but for the sake of space, I'll mention but a handful:
There are more automotive shows than ever before, giving viewers a choice.
<b>Corporate sponsors have come in...including into D1, which would NEVER have been possible if F&F did not break new ground.
Microsoft is sponsoring events because of the excitement of the movie;
In fact, drifting as a sport wouldn't have gotten a dime in sponsorship if F&F had not broadened the size of the market;</b>
MTV is doing projects because of the movie;
More magazines exist now because of the movie;
More performance companies can offer a greater range of products, because of the movie;
Since the tuner market has grown so much, some of our favorite tuner companies straight from Japan are now increasing their presence here because of the movie;
<b> Just for a second, stop being narrow minded </b>and look at the good that has come from this (bad) movie. Did RJ and I like it? Not really, it had its flaws. Was it good for the sport? Most assuredly. Did the mainstream media try to capitalize the negatives? Of course. They don't report the good news, only the bad...that's the <b>liberal media for you.</b>
before i could respond Mr. Lieberman posted this immature pot shot at some kid.
this was posted... showing i wasnt the only one to think fient did not deserve his attack.Originally posted by craiglieberman
Bravo! Brilliant response...you MUST be right then, with such a well thought out reply.
My point: no respect begets no respect.
Is fient a hater? i'd say he hates Mr. Lieberman but when you put your self in a position to be well known you will get guys who hate you. And though i didnt realize it at the time. Fient was familar with Lieberman's attitude from other websites hes been to. An attitude that would make its self known as i took up Fient's defence.Originally posted by rjdevera
Craig - I luv ya bro but there is no need to attack Feint. Yes, I know he is a hater. I know he has taken some shots at you as he has with me but what I am trying to tell everyone here is to be open minded and to share their passion and to forget about the negativity. In the end we all have to live in this sport and culture together.
But alas! while i was still taking my slumber, and before Fient had a chance to defend him self Lieberman posted again!
Not only does he insult fient for not being as old as him.. thus again trying to reduce his honest concerns to nothing more then useless prattling but he implies that fient's only knowledge and experience comes from initial D, AND implies that he usualy is more mature then everyone else and needs to come down to his level.. I supose fient wasnt "powersliding" in the 80s thus nothing he says makes sense... of course i offered up a link in my next post to help lieberman with the differences between power sliding, fish tailing and drifting, wrote by CrazyHawaiian... yeah im sure his only experience is a few episodes of initial D too...Originally posted by craiglieberman
To my bro RJ: Sorry about attacking Feint, but he had it coming. Every once in awhile, I get tired of being "the bigger guy" and gotta unload on the odd 21 year old that surely must know everything because he's watched a couple of episodes of Initial D.
Finally i was able to bring to bare my thoughts and opinions on this new side of Mister lieberman... who i had been defending from the young guy's personal attacks. In a rather long post, i argued (politely) with the audi fan and some of his ideas. but that didnt prove to be a problem.. the rest was about lieberman and i wrote this...
Now his next reply was pretty civil actually, although all the things i had complaints about in the last post where there and in indeed even greater i thought in his current post.Originally posted by nissanguy_24
Now the bulk of my arguement here is aimed at the aparently ubiquitous lieberman. First thing is first. You claimed to be drifting back in the 80s when it was called powersliding. Eh i cringe when i hear people say that. Let me give you a link to help you and other new guys to the scene out. Its wrote by a very nice and intelegent drifter out in hawaii. http://www.powerslideways.com/powersliding.htm
Now Mister Leiberman i have to admit every time you post i seem to like you less and less. First of all it seems like you cant stop talking about how great you are. How cool and rich you've become How much money you have. How much "success" you have. Sir if you have been drifting as long as you claim then you obviously are that bad element of drifting im always talking about. Hell Ernie Fixmer and Alex Pfeiffer who have every right to be cocky about there skill, post on here, and seem down right humble (if not very humble) next to you.
You need to understand that in drifting your respected not for the money you have, not for how many expensive cars you have, or how much you can afford to put into a car (like the show car scene) it all comes down to if you can drive or not. Tossing your so called success around just pisses people off. I know in my mind... and as ignorant as it may seem i knew very little of you before this started and had no negative feelings.... You seemed nice enough at first but every post that went by you seemed to get worse and worse. Frankly your attitude doesnt agree with me.
<b>Lieberman you claim to be one of us but you are so clearly not, your list of cars.. hell it doesnt even include a japanese car. </b>And though i can deffenately respect our brothers in the eurocar scene and apreciate and respect the vehichles its hardly an inexpensive rwd car. <b>And sence your all about the tuner market, its hardly a tuner car! </b>Its just an expensive car. Hell for the cost of that vehichle you could easily keep a "tuner car" or a "drift" car in your garage for next to nothing more. <b>No mater how wealthy i may become i think i will always have my 240sx with me. Its just a love of the car you know? i hope you can understand that, because if you can then we arent so different after all. </b> However if your attitude is "Dude i can get more chicks with my porsche sell the little nissan." Then clearly you are very different then my self, and indeed most drifters you will run into. <b>I hope the second is not true.</b>
[And here is the bulk of my issue with Mister Lieberman]
<b>Mainly what bugs me is you keep mentioning how things wouldnt be where they were today with out fast and the furious or this and that.. stuff that you worked on i supose. You make it sound like if it wasnt for you we all wouldnt be sitting here today. In otherwords the implication is your god's gift to our sport. And that drifter NEEDS you the way show car and drag racers NEEDED you to make the fast and the furious. Or some nonesense like that.</b>
The fact is drifitng doenst need anything or anyone. It especialy doesnt need outsiders trying to advance it. See the thing you need to understand is very few of us drift in order to go pro. We drift for fun. We will drift now and we will drift in 10 years, regardless of anything else. Drifting will go on. Drifters dont need events and television shows or movies. That means any of those things are icying on the cake. And if you dont like the icying it can easily ruin the cake. Because extra media attention becomes just that Extra, we try to make sure if its going to be there that its acurate. Hell we have even corrected a new york times artical on this site and had a correction printed.
Basicly if your going to do something about drifting do it right or dont do it at all. ,b>one of us need you in this sport. So if your going to be here grab a S13 or something go to a track and practice. But dont tell us we should be lucky your here. Why dont you go and look up the "Christian Rado says drifting is easy thread" To see how to make a bad impression in the drifting world. </b> You know i feel bad for rado and i know hes now trying to correct that error, the only way you can... with seat time! And its very admirable but man that artical was like a big foot in his mouth.
You will no doubt have a sharp reply to this, Go ahead and feel free to. [/B]
Although i have to admit, i noticed small jabs at me, put rather subtly but it was more of that "anything you say is useless prattle" type stuff he tried on fient. I will make it bold in the quote..
Harp? as in Harpees? clearly an insult. And whats this? he uses narrow minded again? okay everyone listen up if you dont agree with lieberman then your narrow minded. Having an open mind means agreeing with everything lieberman says!Originally posted by craiglieberman
Quote: Lieberman you claim to be one of us but you are so clearly not, your list of cars.. hell it doesnt even include a japanese car. And though i can deffenately [sic] respect our brothers in the eurocar scene and apreciate [sic]and respect the vehichles its hardly an inexpensive rwd car. And sence [sic] your[sic] all about the tuner market, its hardly [sic]a tuner car! End quote.
I found this portion of your thread difficult to understand....<b>but this section, like the rest of your post, seem to harp on your belief that I'm trying to be something I'm not.</b>
Quite the contrary; what I have been trying to communicate is that I have BEEN THERE, DONE THAT. If you don't think sliding a 240Z around canyon roads in 1986 is the same as Touge today, <b>you're out in left field. </b> My point was, I DID IT ALREADY and I believe this, among other experiences, make me qualified to consult for so many companies. I hope one day you are afforded the same opportunities.
By my own admission, I'm at a different point in my life than most drifters. European cars and more upscale brands are my current preference. <b>I'm not telling you what cars I own to impress anyone,</b> I relayed this point because I felt it proves that as car geeks get older, we still love nice cars. I don't claim to be one of you, I claim to have come from a similar background and to prove that I have paid my dues. <b>It pisses ME off when young people think they've done everything and know everything at 21.</b>
As for the fellow who says he'll still have a 240 in his garage in 20 years: yeah, sure. In 20 years, you'll most assuredly be able to buy any car you want, and most tend to want to broaden your horizons but we ARE alike in the sense that like me, you most likely enjoy the punch that only a turbo'd car can provide...your taste just gets a little more expensive as you mature, trust me.
As for the gentlemen who said "you don't even own a Japanese car,", umm, hello? <b>Been there, done that, too. Owned a Supra and a Skyline. </b>Now I gotta buy a $6000 to prove I'm cool? Great, I'll take a dozen...scratch that, I like mine with air conditioning, and most drift cars don't have a/c anymore ;-) I <b>noticed no one bothered to answer my questions about their age, or their credentials, nor do they even post under their real name, yet they're supposed to be credible because they post on a forum?</b>
To be blunt, as one fellow pointed out, Redline is NOT 100% about drifting; it is designed to expose a wide range of people to the PERFORMANCE aspects of the tuner world. Drifting is a MINISCULE part of the tuner performance world. All of the drifting events outside of D1GP have drawn very modest sized audiences.
Is it cool? Hell yes, and I love every minute of it and I'm glad we're covering it. Hell, we show your boy Alex Pfeiffer.
I am astonished and mortified that so many people aren't more ecstatic to see drifting covered on a REAL network and as in depth as we are.
<b>I did not come into this forum searching for opinions, I came to respond to bogus assumptions, myths, misinformation and questions. </b> ***** Pay attention to this!
You may want to consider this: without sponsors, and without the creators of this program, there would currently be ZERO coverage of your beloved drifting on American TV. Tragic that few realize this. With respect to Super2NR and other import programming, trust me when I tell you that even though some of us liked it, most did not, and it was pulled from the air. Clearly, something was wrong (although for the record, I thought some of the content was great).
Again, you're free to get your company to sponsor and create a TV program...if you think you can do it better and make money, tell me what channel to watch. <b>Its' easy to sit back from a computer and cast aspersions when you don't grasp the big picture </b>which includes logistics, network TV requirements, the ability to sell programming, sponsorship relationships, etc.
You don't think we wanted to show touge? You think any sponsor would buy commercials on a TV program showcasing illegal activities? You think anyone would be dumb enough to allow their secret spot to be revealed on camera? You don't think we wanted to go to Japan and cover cars on a Japanese road? Did you even notice that unlike other sponsors, MagnaFlow freely allowed competitor's logos to remain visible. Why? We wanted to cover the whole sport.
<b>There's a lot going on behind the scenes that you nothing about. </b>
Look, if you don't like or my cars, great....at least be smart enough to MEET me before you say you hate me...<b>makes you look less <i>narrow minded.</i></b>
For Ziptyed, let me just say that you are EXACTLY the type of viewer we want: the passionate who don't hate, they love...they love the sport and all things associated with it.
To Jasper: make us proud, guys. Hopefully, Redline will catch up with you next season.
So tune in this week and send your hate emails to me, clieberman@magnaflow.com [/B]
Obviously the next post in this back and forward arguement was nissan guy flaming the crap out of him thus starting a little war right?? oh no... thats not what happened at all.
Thats right before i could respond he responded to someone else... full of little jabs at me! i Guess its me and narrow minded fient who get to take heat for standing up to the all power ful wizard of oz... err i mean Lieberman..
Now hes all about opinions! as long as they dont come from "guys with no credentials except they use forums" AKA Me.....Originally posted by craiglieberman
Snowblind: I didn't attack his spelling, I pointed those out because invariably, someone will blame me for it....it happens on every freakin' forum.
You respect NissanGuy, that's fine...<b>but why? Because he was on this board before I was? Because he drifts now, even though I did it 18 years ago? Because he's "one of us?" Doesn't make him or anyone else right or even credible and being the longest standing member of a chat board doesn't provide credibility.</b>
<b>Utterly bewildering. </b>
Express opinions, fine....but qualify them as that, opinions. Kudos to you for expressing your very real opinion that drifting will get blinged out. I respect your opinion.
<B>Isn't the whole point of this thread to give constructive feedback? Yet we're supposed to tolerate the views displayed here, from people who have not provided any shred of evidence as to their credibility with no other support than "I was here first so I must be right?"</B> **** Wow i now hes about feedback and opinions?? Also notice the jab.. because of my high post count, he assumes, i carry some respect, thus he needs to jab at it often...
<b>Offering criticisms based on nonsensical opinions of people with no real background, experience or even (in some cases) a shred of respect is not helping make the program better, its' discrediting those who choose to engage in such activity. </b>
And drifting IS a miniscule part of the tuner performance world...I know its' a bigger portion of Drifting.com's world, but in the grand scheme of the $3.2B tuner market, its' a tiny, tiny piece of the pie (although a delicious piece).
<b>Guys...if you want to help, may I suggest the following:
Here's what I don't like:
Here's how I'd like to see if fixed:
Wow! Wouldn't that be cool?
We'll do our part, you do yours. Or not. </b>
Ah nissan guy how will you respond to this?? stay tuned for the next issue (AKA this one is too long)Last edited by nissanguy_24; 07-11-2004, 12:32 PM.Comment
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