physics and drifting?

[SidewaysGts]

I think a basic understanding of whats going to happen and why its going to happen is important. but not a total full blwon understanding off al the physics at work.

Keep in mind nothing does beat seat time really, but ALSO keep in mind you need to learn form your mistakes in order to get better. If your unable to see or even understand your mistakes, its much harder to corrent them ya know?

its not -needed- as trial and error could do the same thing over time. It just aides in quickening the learning process you obtain while in the seat imo.

[VertigoEpidemic]

Originally posted by malcolm
other way around dude... drifting is kinetic friction, because the contact patch isn't "contacting"... it's sliding. Grip racing could be though of in simple terms as using static friction, because the tires aren't sliding.

Aww man... sorry, kinda screwed that up up a bit... psh... now I know I bombed that test.

[malcolm]

hahaha... no worries dude. what physics are you taking? highschool? university?

[Drift For Food]

I think Craftsman says it best. It's a combination of understanding and doing. I've been in school for a long time, have taking lots of physics, and I have lately, for about a year and a half, I've been interested in the physics aspect of cars and suspension tuning. What I've learned from all of this, is that it truely does take both book smarts and practical experience to really grasp the idea behind drifting.

The booksmarts aspect, i.e. knowing the physics behind the car's behavior even if only in a basic, generalized sense, gives you the understanding of knowing what should happen when you do something. Through understanding of the physics behind what a car does, you can understand why various techniques work. As well, you can apply them accordingly. You know what should happen if you let off the gas and steer more into the turn while mid-drift. Physics tells you what should happen. Weight shifts forward and the rear end loses some grip while the front gains some. As well, steering farther into the turn tries to tighen the cornering arc of the car. This should, in theory, increase the attach angle of the drift and tighten the cornering line of the car.

Now, real world experience actually allows you to apply these principles. You understand how things work and what should happen when you do things. Now you have to teach your mind and body to do it correctly. You have to physically train yourself to opperate correctly. As well, you have to train yourself to counteract situations that arise from unknown factors. Imprefections in the road may require slight steering and throttle changes instant by instant. Practice teaches you to do this unconsiouly. Through time and effort, steering and throttle/brake inputs can become more second nature. For example, following tha above situation and expanding a little. Let's say the corner we are drifting tightens as we go around. This is the reason we let off the throttle and turn in a little. We bleed off speed and tighten the line. Ok, that's our theory. So, how long do we let off? How much do we steer in? Beats me. This is where practicle experience comes in. In reality, this is all very dynamic. It requires continuous, instant changes to work. On the same corner, you could go from simply letting off the throttle, to letting off and a good margin of decreased countersteering, to even requiring some braking input to achieve enough deceleration and a tight enough cornering line change. Depending on the car, say one with a bit of understeer or little weight transfer, you may find letting off the throttle to maybe be counter productive. The rear end may gain grip. On the other hand, say with a car that transfers weight redily and is relatively neutral or even oversteers, you may find a simple let off of the gas to bring the rear end out nicely or even too much so requiring increased countersteer. Besides that, road variations may force you to drastically change what you're doing. A slick spot or a sudden gain of traction of the rear wheels(you did stop spinning the tires), may require some quick action.

To kind of wrap this up, understanding the concepts is a great tool. However, nothing beats practicle experience. Get seat time, lots of it, but always use that head of yours. It'll keep you safe.

One final note, something I kind of left out, it's not very helpful to not have the booksmarts. For example, if you don't have a clue how a car works or the physics behind it, it would be kind of wreckless to drift it. If you were sideways and wanted to drift a tightening corner as I mentioned in the above examples, what would you do? With no understanding of what will happen when you do certain things, what are your choices? Try anything and see what happens? That's not a safe way to learn to drift. Sure, you'll figure it out after some time, but man, I'd hate to just go head first into something so complicated as drifting without having a clue about it. That's an accident waiting to happen.


Whew, long post. I'm not done, but I'd like to split my other talking from this one, lol.

[Drift For Food]

Going back to the physics aspect. I've kind of been having a desire to make up a sort of drift guide. It would kind of be a guide to the basics, but from a more physics standpoint. It would expain various techniques and how they work, and then it would provide some situations where such a technique would be useful. As well, an introduction to drifting in general would be given(initially). It would explain the physics behind the "drift" and would cover force vectors, traction circles, weight balances, and such. The whole thing would be coverd in that manner, more technical. I think it would be good eye opener for some and a useful tool for many newcomers. The concepts would be explained in both a basic, introductory sense as well as an in-depth physics standpoint.

If only I didn't work so much and wasn't so lazy when I'm not working, lol.

[Craftsman]

As all my *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*ing professors say... F=MA

What goes in must come out... If you overload your wheels with power or you carry alot of inertia into turns, you will loose traction. If you try to overload your tires by braking really hard, your wheels will lock up... It's elementary physics.

Actually, even thermodynamics comes into action when you're drifting and I'm not talking about the engine...

When you overload your tires and burn them, you're forcing the tires to spin at 70 to 80 percent traction. If your car isn't moving during that period of time, you're converting that force (tire friction) into heat... That's why they burn. It's a force conversion.

Anyways... nothing beats driving time... the physics of driving is pretty easy to learn...

OOh... something else to add... material and structural engineering also come into play when drifting. Like the axles on your car, it puts fatigue wear on your axles. Over time the axles will break unpredictably if alot of torsion is applied to the axles. Unless the axles are designed with several factors of safety, the axles will fatigue...

Some people just suck at driving... I'm one of them. I try and try and continue to suck... Oh well...

[malcolm]

actually, F = d/dt (mv)

(according to newton... this infers that that velocity can remain constant while the net force is something other than zero. why? because the mass is changing! think of a rocket engine)

[/smarta** comment]

as for the fatiguing thing, I agree, and that's why I am hesitant to use clutch-kick, etc., for fear that lots of little parts in my drivetrain will fatigue and fail prematurely...

also, matt, you brought up a good point about forces, and how to initiate a drift. Enter a corner at the limit, not over. All four tires are at their max. let off the throttle, and brake a bit. Now the front tires have more weight on them, and are well under the limit of traction. The rear tires have less weight on them, have less traction, and thus start to slide because they are over the limit of traction.

[otakugt4]

^sweet, I have actually never thought about it like that. hmm, I will have to try it on some curvy roads this weekend. Ah the bliss of living in the country.

[Craftsman]

Originally posted by malcolm
actually, F = d/dt (mv)

Now if you really want to get smart on me..

F= d^2/dt^2 * m * x

(where m=mass and x= distance)

the d^2/dt^2 is the second derivative based on time.

Muhahahaha.

Yea, everything about cars is based on control systems, thermodynamics, heat transfer, linear programing (optimization), solid mechanics, dynamic mechanics, material science, fluid mechanics, etc... There is alot more engineering and physics behind the scene than most people realize. I'm amazed that some cars even work at all.

Anyways... for drifting the most important knoledge of physics needed IMO is a little bit of dynamics. i.e. friction circle, weight transfer and equations like v^2/r. Velocity squared divided by radius. Meaning that for the same amount of centrifical acceleration into a turn, a wider radius will allow you carry an exponential amount of velocity.

BTW, you learn all this in driving school.

[Craftsman]

Originally posted by The Drifter D
E=mc2

Too true...

This is why you shouldn't drive too fast. The faster you go, your energy exponentially increases. You are now a deadly weapon in your car...

[SidewaysGts]

And what does e=mc2 really stand for

im not talk energy = mass x speed of light.. i mean.. wtf does that mean pretty simple actually

[Craftsman]

Kinetic energy = 1/2 * m * v^2

Energy (according to relativity by Einstein and proven over time) is E=mc^2

m = Mass.
C = Constant for the speed of light (this actually varies depending on the medium due to density of the material)

Anyways, we're getting way off topic.

The only physics you really need is dynamics to learn how to drift. You need to learn dynamic friction, stuff like friction circle, and momentum... That's about it.

[SidewaysGts]

Not asking for you to break it down; asking if anyone actually understands the simple equation.

somethign simple really; which contains more energy, a 1 pound rod of plutonium, or a 1 pound rod of uranium

anyways ya this is off topic uhm.. drifting is fun

[VertigoEpidemic]

Originally posted by malcolm
hahaha... no worries dude. what physics are you taking? highschool? university?

I'm taking Highschool. Honors Physics this sem. and AP Physics next sem.

This is actually quite interesting. I think I learn much easier when cars are involved.

[SidewaysGts]

Its much easier to learn something you enjoy