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**twcfc3s** · 11-09-2004, 07:26 PM

so its a drag car right???.....very nice front(i really mean just the front) and very inpresfull engine bay....

**malcolm** · 11-09-2004, 11:15 PM

Not quite. Roll Bar is enough for roll over.

what? "Roll bar is enough for roll over"? Man, you must not have seen a car hit a wall roof first then. You need a cage. That's why all road racing sanctioning bodies mandate a *minimum* of a six-point cage.

The x's that they design are for roll over or stiffen anything just plain monkey bars.

I assume you mean "aren't" instead of are...

assuming that, you're wrong. Plain and simple. Who on earth would be stupid enough to take a totally built car like that, and put in USELESS bars that just add weight, if they aren't for safety or stiffness?

Basically, how "x" braces work is that one cross is put under tension, and the other is put under compression. check out the image below.

Also, just look at ANY racing car that's road-based, and you'll see a ton of tubing... why? because it makes the car stiff, and it protects the driver. it's that simple.

Attached Files

Al · 11-10-2004, 12:24 AM

Come look at real cages and not at some monkey bars.

Take a look at this Pic.
http://www.speedmachineracing.com/DSC00027.JPG

That is a form of Monkey Bar. The X on the mainloop is NOT required and its ban from SCCA Pro Racing. It does not help for roll over except make it for the driver un-safe. The harness bar has to be attach from Top Mainloop to the Floor. Just like this pic. http://www.witchdoctormotorsports.com/wdmonztr-pic2.jpg

It can't be attach to an X bar that is cut. That is the SCCA Pro Racing Rules.

I bet you dig this cage right here...

I can just name a shitload of things with his cage. No padding whatsoever. If safety was one of thier option it should have padding atleast. This car is for show. Sure its fast but is it safe? NO.

Here is the cage that I draw and would be safe enough. Remember, Cage is to protect drivers and not to endanger them. Its also for roll over and not for stiffen chassis. That is what cages is for. If you want to stiffen up chassis then look in spot welding the car. Do you think Cusco helps a shitload of reinforcing chassis? Yea it would help a bit but its design for roll over. Cusco is also ban from SCCA cause of the bend from the front dash. A-Pillar has to be straight to the dash without any bends.

I also see the Sidebar then added with the floor bar. It just doesn't make any sense. How much reinforce do you need if that was the car they are trying to do. From a Pillar to Mainloop floor bar is not going to help much.

See that X for the rear. That is not going to help *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*. That is just for show but if you want to stiffen the X a bit then I added a bar from the Rear Spring perch to the mainloop floor.

That is my car. I design the cage myself.

-Al

Al · 11-10-2004, 12:43 AM

Again, I tend to prefer a simpler cage design than some of the monkey bar setups that I've seen lately. You'd think at some point in time, the structural rigidity that you've developed may be outweighed (literally) by the additional weight you're adding to the car.

That, and the fact that you may cage yourself right out of any crumple zones, and force any impact right into the driver's body.

The bottom line is that simply adding tubes doesn't make for a good cage. The design must be well engineered and executed to provide the desired result.

-Al

**malcolm** · 11-10-2004, 08:10 PM

ok, well, I didn't look at the pics that closely... I assumed if they were building a good car, they'd put a decent cage in it. I didn't really look at the actual design. Also, I could barely understand your post, so it was difficult to tell if you were expressing your displeasure at roll cages in general, or that specific one. Most of your sentences contain many errors that change the literal meaning of your sentence entirely.

As of right now, for some reason I can't view the photos, so I can't go back and have a look and judge them myself.

However, rollcages, when tied in properly, add MASSIVE strength to the car. Seam-welding helps, but a rollcage will improve the stiffness of the car as well.

you may cage yourself right out of any crumple zones, and force any impact right into the driver's body.

This is partially true. For example, you don't want a huge steel bar at the front of the car that is well supported. You want it to crush a bit. However, for side-impacts, you don't want the cage to deflect at all, for obvious reasons. Around the driver, you DON'T want crush zones, unless you can fabricate a seperate crush zone, and still have a strong cage for side impact (for an example, take a look at the Super Touring cars in the late 90's. After Keith O'dor died at the Avus-Ring in Germany from being t-boned, the FIA mandated that those types of cars have crush areas as well as a strong cage.)

Here is a properly designed cage. This is more than just tubes welded into a chassis. This cage is totally integrated into the shell. It was designed with a computer program that can predict what will happen in most situations just by using a computer model.

See how the cage goes to the struts, front and rear, but it doesn't go beyond? It allows for crush at front and rear, but is rigid between, where it should be.

For more information on the cage above, built by Triple Eight Racing, visit: http://www.tripleeight.co.uk/astra/race-shell.asp

Here is another cage, built by the Seat Factory (pronounced "See-att"... Spanish car company owned by VW). Again, it's what you call "monkey bars" but you can see at the bottom they have a carbon-fibre side-impact protection panel there to prevent the cage from deflecting.

****see next post for attached photo... the Euro Touring car site won't let me link to their photos...****

Here is a crappy MS Paint image of the cage in our Corvette. All the black lines are tubes, all the green lines are chassis members (just the ones the tubes link to), and the red dots are where the cage links to the chassis. Even by just jacking up the car, I noticed the difference after putting in the cage. It's much stiffer now.

Attached Files

**malcolm** · 11-10-2004, 08:21 PM

here's the pic of the Seat. Also, note how the tube running along the A-pillar is connected via a piece of sheet metal to the pillar all the way down. All the bars making triangles are like huge gussets, and make the chassis VERY stiff. These people wouldn't just add random bars into their cars when they are spending millions of dollars on their race programs.

Attached Files

Al · 11-11-2004, 11:32 AM

Did you read of what the main argument was...

We are speaking about his cage by having those monkey bars. It does not help him at all. You said "Putting extra bars would help stiffen the car" I say NO. The design that they have is not going to help much but "OMGHI2U!!!!11 that cage is awesome".

BTW: This Cage http://www.tripleeight.co.uk/astra/cage.jpg

Do you even know that most of the frames are gone already by having that cage... That cage is basicly the frame of the car.

Do you see an X on the mainloop then another X behind the mainloop? LOL

I just look at that design closely and its not for a car. Its for a buggy cage. The Flooring X and the Halo X from the front and rear.

**malcolm** · 11-12-2004, 12:12 AM

a buggy? what the hell? it's for the Vauxhall Astra, which is a two-door sport compact car sold in britain. This is the cage design they use for the BTCC (british touring car championship).

dude, I am trying to read what your argument is, but I can't understand you. I haven't looked at the FC3S.org car's cage closely, and I am not sure if it's good or bad.

Adding bars in *certain areas* can stiffen the car. It's a fact. It's obvious.

honestly, I don't even know what your argument is. please explain yourself for me.

**SpeedMachine** · 11-12-2004, 06:13 PM

First off, hello to everyone here. I was invited to come check out the forum by a moderator, and from what I have seen it is a really good place for drifters to talk with each other.

As for the response on the car we built for SEMA, I appreciate it greatly. I respect everyones opinion, even if they don't like something on the car. I just went through a big long post saying the same thing on the RX7Club forum. Here are my thoughts on some of the comments here:

As for the cage being a monkey bar setup for show...I think not. The fabricator, Kenny Battenfield, has been doing roll cages for everything from Baja 1000 trucks to tube chassis drag cars for the last 10 years. His cages are some of the best I have ever seen anywhere. He just finished a cage for the B&G Suspension Mazda sponsored NASA road race car. The RX-7 cage isn't built for a certain class, especially SCCA. This is a street car, that we will go to the drags, autocross events, open track road race and drift events. It is legal for all of those classes of racing. As for the safety, I have encluded more in depth pics of the cage. Just because it is painted to match the car color does not make is a show cage. Show cages are typically bolt in, IE Cusco. This is a fully welded DOM 1 5/8" 083 walled cage. It is 10 point, and is tied into some of the most critical parts of the car for strength and rigitity.

I think that this will proove to anyone that the cage design and build is top notch and would protect the driver from alot of walls and other cars. The front of the car past the strut towers is a crush area, as is the rear under the fuel cell. It is designed to take an impact, and put the force into the cage after some of the force has dissipated into the unibody. The entire underside of the car, and alot of the inside of the car was seam welded to help with chassis strength.

**SpeedMachine** · 11-12-2004, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by SDRotary
yea craig bulids some pretty bad *Censored**Censored**Censored* cars`

Um, no. Matt and I built that car.

**SpeedMachine** · 11-12-2004, 06:37 PM

Here are the pics again. I had to move them to a third server since the bandwidth was exceeded on the other servers

**SPiN Racing** · 11-13-2004, 02:00 AM

DAVE!

Cage is really nice.

Mounting points are not all where I would put them.. but they are close.. And thats fine... I would have the main hoop up on the crossmember.. But thats me..

Only issue I have (No I dont think it is a BS cage BTW) Is the connection of your tubes.

You ran the tubes that will be distributing your loads.... and didnt have them in-line with each other. Therefore if they have a load pushing against them.. they will deform the vertical tube acting as a crush area.

Basically all your joints.. on the main hoop, on all your X bars and all your support bars the tubes do not all come together in one focal location. They are seperated by in some cases 1 Inch or more..

Yes it is not a full race car.. but they are going to cause havoc if you have a accident that is cage worthy.

I have seen a friend who races roundy-round weld stuff he thought was cage type stuff.. and he had done that in places.. and whenever he gets hit it shears the vertical bars each time. (Yet he keeps re-doing them that way

)

BUT... As you have said.. it is a multi purpose cage.. not for a specific race class etc. Therefore it is a gorgeous cage. It (Cage only) may not pass tech in many SCCA road racing classes for some of the design choices.. but it will be a coin toss I think.. ( I am leaning toward the prod world.. and thinking the bar through the firewall would prevent IT.. not that the car is IT legal.. too many mods

)

**SpeedMachine** · 11-13-2004, 11:40 PM

Thanks for the feedback Scott. I appreciate constructive criticism. Again, this is a street car first and fore most. It will attend open track days in different forms of racing, so the legallity of the cage for sanctioned racing isn't a question. It was never built for professional racing, nor will it ever be involved in that fashion. That was my point from the get go.

Thanks again all for the feedback.

Al · 11-13-2004, 11:50 PM

I tried letting go this thread but when I saw

Again, this is a street car first and fore most.

Don't even try driving this car at all in any streets.

Buy some paddings if you do. SFI might be good enough but knowing you have some power under that hood. Get the FIA rated paddings.

Just cause your head don't reach the bars don't mean it actually can't during a crash.

goodluck

**nasty nate 7** · 11-14-2004, 03:35 AM

DAVE GIBSON IS MY HERO. SPONSOR ME PLZ???

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