Drifting

[240Haitian]

Hi! Is the Toyota Supra a good drifting car???

[Munch]

urf....

try checking out the newbie section or try searching. i can almost gaurantee u its been discussed before.

anyways, the supra is RWD, so its able to drift. im not sure just how 'good' of a drift car it is, but im sure it can hold its own.

[14yrolddrifter]

watch out because people at this site hate questions like that... you might get flamed. Anyhow, look up some information on sam hubinette, he drifted supra.

[Craftsman]

I'm just happy that he didn't post it in the general forum topic.

Also, what I wanted to say... The supra is an excellent car for drifting. The Supra has an extremely low center of gravity and has a good wheelbase to track ratio. Not many cars can beat Supras for drift-ability. It's got an excellent platform for engine tuning also. Alot of tuners have pulled over 700 HP out of those 2JZ-GTEs.

Alot of drifters in Japan take out the 2JZ-GTE and put in the 3S-GE (4 cylinder motor from Altezza and MR2) with turbo or 3S-GTE for weight reduction and performance, but both have their pluses and minuses.

Anyways, enough of me talking about these cars like I know something. I really don't know anything. Don't take my word for anything here. I haven't worked on these motors myself.

But yes, the supra is an excellent car for drifting. It's lowered center of gravity helps when sliding because it keeps the car more stable sideways.

[14yrolddrifter]

Supras are actually a bit of a boat if you ask me, but there are kits out there that can create 1300hp for around 30,000USD

[SidewaysGts]

Ive always been told they werent good drift cars becuase theyre heavy (like 3400 pounds arent they?) and on top of that they have a stright 6 in their nose, so that makes it front heavy and physicaly heavy.

The lighter 4 cylinder engine would probably help the weight and weight distribution

[_PG_]

What's everybody's problem with a lot of weight in the front? its not ideal to have a heavy car for drifting, but its no unseen. JZX series is super popular as are R32s, Cefiros, Laurels, etc. A heavy car with a long wheelbase is SUPER smooth and can slide really really easily. Its the suspension tuning and driver skill that will allow you to STOP it from sliding or make it go where you want while sliding.

Plus a heavy car will never be light and nible... therefore, you strip out the back half, leave the front half relatively full and thus INCREASE front weight dist. This will give the front tires more grip and allow the rear end to "pivot" around the front a little easier, instead of the front "walking" the opposide way as the rear (think mid engine car).

So basically... heavy front end for drifting=good.

Supras for drifting.... ehhhh. The Mk as and IIs, you might as well get a Hachi. More support, more nible, more options. Mk II is a FCUKING PIG. Its so heavy... I would take one of those cars and drive it....... into a brick wall! Mk IV are heavy, powerful and EXPENSIVE. Are they potentially good performing drift cars? Yea. Does anyone use them? No, too expensive. More expensive than drifting a Soarer/SC300.

[SidewaysGts]

What's everybody's problem with a lot of weight in the front?

Plus a heavy car will never be light and nible

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Yousaid it yourself, heavier cars simply dont turn as well as lighter cars, more weight means more momentum, and momentum likes to go in a single direction.

Front heavy cars are known to understeer, grant it some understeer can actually be GOOD for drifting, but too much weight up front.. well driver input can only compensate for so much.

The nose of a front heavy car is simply harder to redirect. Lightening only the back, making the car even more front heavy would just increase this.
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instead of the front "walking" the opposide way as the rear (think mid engine car).

What did this mean? The front end of of mid engine cars tucks in very nicely, with the back end liking to kick out (not so nicely haha).

Front heavy cars simply arent good for drifting, theres a reason you dont see many old american muscle cars with v8s putting their weight distribution in at like 57:43 in drifting too often.
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The real saving grace of the supra is the amoutn of power the vehicle can produce, it has no trouble breaking the rear end out by just simply gunning the gas, causing the tires to accelerate faster then they can tolerate.

[_PG_]

NO buddy....

Front weight distribution actually gives your front tires more force. Force=friction. Friction=grip. Its only when you overcome your front tire's grip that you understeer. Think about braking... when you brake hard, the weight shifts forward, and gives more grip to the front tires (more force pushing them to the ground) Problem is... if you ask your car to brake too much and turn too much at the same time, the tire's limit is exceeded.

I'm not saying that a front heavy car will handle better... there is a lot more than just front tire grip when it comes to vehicle dynamics.

I am saying, purely drifting... a front biased car is a good thing. Why does hardly anyone drift MR cars? Or RR? They come out easiy, but they over rotate cause you have no weigh in the front of the car.

lets say your car is sliding at a constant speed. your front has more mass, your rearhas less. Which one has more inertia in this situation? The area with more mass. Therfore, using steering to direct your vector of travel (line) your front will always be more likely to follow that vector versus the rear. When you start combining weight transferring (while under power and drifting, the weight transfers back, so if you keep more mass in the front, you still have an adequate amount of grip. Going off on a tangent here, but you will have problems coiming to a decreasing radius super tight corner, especially after a high speed link or long slide (in a heavy car). why? Because that neutral aspect that is very stable at high speed long slide turns into a lot of frotn weight shift while slowing down quickly, meaning the possibility of overloading the front tires, understeering. So at the apex of a tight corner, a big car, do be a little more cautious, is usually going to have to go a tad bit slower. Thus, big heavy long cars usually rock lots of power, so they can accelerate out (catch up or pull away from a competitor for instance).

Ok, sorry for the tangent.

Just look at all the Night Walkers, or TGS (Technical Garage Sudou) cars. All JZX series, with completely stripped rears and almost full interior from the front forward. No offense, but compared to your theories, i think these guys know whats up with a little more experience.

Yousaid it yourself, heavier cars simply dont turn as well as lighter cars, more weight means more momentum, and momentum likes to go in a single direction.

This is an easy lead in to my next point, and one of your other questions...

The front of your car while drifting does a very odd thing compared to when you are grip driving. Grip driving under hard cornering loads the outermost tire the heaviest and with stock suspension (most heavy cars dont have sports suspension) it throws the momentum towards the front and outside pretty violently, causing you to fight the momentum of your car to get it to turn, thus understeer more easily.

In drifting, your car SHOULD have a more sports oriented coilover suspension (imo) which makes weight transfers less drastic and keep the car more stable (everything i have been referencing has assumed a fairly built suspension, which is a must for any higher level drift car). Well anways, while drifting, your momentum is over your front outside wheel as well (or somewhere around there, depending on weight distribution and slip angle)... only difference is you are now turning INTO that direction. Ok, bringing it in:

What did this mean? The front end of of mid engine cars tucks in very nicely, with the back end liking to kick out (not so nicely haha).

While turning in grip driving, yes, can't really beat the dynamics of MR or RR cars : under heavy braking it has slight, manageable front bias, under straight acceleration it has 70-80% bias over rear wheels, under turning and accelerating through a corner it has slight rear bias which helps to reduce understeer because you have already loaded the front tires, turned in and just clipped the apex... through the apex and out fo the corner shoudl be acceleration because the turn no longer gets tight, it opens up. If you think about it, a good drift car actually understeers. It just understeers in the direction of the racing line (if you did it correctly) . Hardly any set-up drift cars oversteer.

But while drifting... your rear end acts like a pendulum... so it will pivot on the CM (Center of Mass). If that mass is in the front, it will make the pendulum "arm" (distance from CM to rear end) longer, and thus more stable at high speed. If the "arm" is shorter ie MR cars, the pendulum can swing faster, but with less stability to hold that angle. Also, if the CM is too far away from the front tires (directors of vector, or racing line) they will not have enough grip (no mass, no inertia, no friction=no grip). What I mean by "walking" is that since your front tires have very little mass over them, the inertia of your car is rearward, away from them. But they have to do the directing of your angle. With less inertia in the front versus rear, your front will slow down while your rear wants to keep going... Over rotating.

For drifting you want your rear end to slow down quicker and be more nimble than the front. You can always adjust the "pendulum's swing" with throttle (proportioning the rear tires' grip and speed).

Front heavy cars simply arent good for drifting, theres a reason you dont see many old american muscle cars with v8s putting their weight distribution in at like 57:43 in drifting too often.

You don't think that has to do with their suspension geometry, OUTRAGEOUS weight and perhaps driver setup?



**CLIFF NOTES**
When drifting, the car will follow its path of inertia. If the inertia is around the wheels that have grip and will steer the car, you can be in control, if it is out back swinging around and wanting to rotate, not slide in one direction, you have a tail happy sin-out car.

DRIFTING IS THE BALANCE OF YOUR FRONT INERTIA WHICH IS IN A LONG, VERY SUBTLE ARC AND YOUR REAR'S PENDULUM INERTIA WHICH IS IN A SHORTER RADIUS ARC. AS A DRIVER, YOU MUST LEARN HOW TO BALANCE BETWEEN THE ARCS TO CONTROL YOUR ANGLE AND DIRECTION.

[SidewaysGts]

That was full of a whole lot of nothing and contradictions with lots of technical explinations.

Ill be blunt, you said wayt to much *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* for me to even want to deal with.

Just becuase you have more weight % up front does NOT mean you have the force needed to redirect the nose of the vehicle.

You say this is better for drifting and not for gripping, keep in mind it is not possible to drift without first exceeding the limits of grip within the vehicle. If your unable to accumulate the grip to turn in properly drifting properly wouldnt be too practical.
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Your pendulum anology for mid engine cars was nice i give it that, but dont forget this idea works both ways. In back heavy cars the front end swings out quickly once the traction is lost, in front heavy cars its the opposite once traction is lost, with the front end cutting in quickly. Control is minimal and your likely to spin out.
If you dont believe me i ask you kindly to look into the history of cars such as the Sunbeam Tiger, tiny sardine can cars with huge v8-v10 engines up front. Cars such as this are VERY well known for spinning out and for good reason.
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Drifting is about balance- something the drift king himself said (i cant think of anyone more creditable when it comes to drifting imo). It was something along the lines of 50/50 balances cars arent good for drifting (not the important part) but instead a slight balance to either the front or the back is(therest he important part)

In drifting you want controlability, you want one end to slightly "over power" the other end, not completley. the action of such cars is quick, violent and often uncontrollable.

once again their saving grace is that cars with a great biased towads the front often have huge horsepower making it easy to break the back end out. in larger competitions the turns are designed very wide, where understeering is much of a problem so tight turn ins arent needed.
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Ill stick to my original argument: I patiently await the arival of older american muscle cars with a near 60% weight biased up front to do as awesome in drifting competitions that you claim front heavy cars can.

[-=Zero Drift=-]

to answer your question YES a supra is a good drift car any thing that is rwd has a chance to be a good drifting car.

[_PG_]

You say this is better for drifting and not for gripping, keep in mind it is not possible to drift without first exceeding the limits of grip within the vehicle. If your unable to accumulate the grip to turn in properly drifting properly wouldnt be too practical.

Not on the front tires.You don't overcome any traction limit on your front tires (perhaps a couple times front locking as you go into an apex, but thats not needed to drift, thats just style). My front tires last a whole lot longer drifting than they do if i grip. (doing one or the other for the life of the tires)

something the drift king himself said (i cant think of anyone more creditable when it comes to drifting imo)

F that guy... put him out there with some of the newest, top drifters and see if he can even come close to competing. He already gets dusted by Orido. Keiichi's ability is to adapt and learn cars quickly, able to drift everything from a stock S14 to a race prepped NSX. Anyways, i watched the "drift bible" once. That was a whole bunch of weirdness released in 1996. Seriously, high level drifting is so much more complex than what he goes through. I'm just saying that sometimes the student become better than the teacher.

Ill stick to my original argument: I patiently await the arival of older american muscle cars with a near 60% weight biased up front to do as awesome in drifting competitions that you claim front heavy cars can.

Again, i will ask you why anyone would set up one of those cars?? A 4000 lbs car with 2kg springs, I-beam front suspension, 175/75/15 F and 275/65/15 R tires with leaf springs, solid axle, 450 hp with 550 lbs of torque with a redline of 5,000 rpm and a 3 speed auto tranny... sounds GREAT for drifting! Not to mention vinyl bench seats, foot pedal parking brake, and a 500mm bus steering wheel...

Just go ask any of my friends who drift Soarers, Laurels, R32s, etc... they'll tell you the same thing i've been saying weight isn't that bad, depending on teh DRIVER's preference and style. Everyone's car i have ever seen setup is all the same, leave a bit of weight in front and gut the hell out of the back... Hell, even the guy who drives the JZX110 Verossa in Night Walkers says that heavy cars are easy to drift (with his style and technique) when aproperly set up. Pfieffer will tell you the same thing about his SC300. Why not ask some of the Hawaii Camarro guys what they think? They do pretty well in those beastly, front heavy 80's muscle cars.

[SidewaysGts]

Drift bible was instructional, far from anything the drift king is capable of. Hes known as the drift king for using drift in races and still being able to win. If the drift bible you have of him i suggest looking else where. He was just an example, if youd like i could look for other pros who have said something along the same lines.

Muscle cars seem like perfect examples of your superior front heavy drifting vehicles. Leafspring suspensions dont need to be kept, there are companies who offer simple conversions kits. some almost bolt right on and require minor to no welding.

Dont look down upon the low reving torque engines either, in the end thats their key ability to breaking those wheels loose. Ive said it once ill say it again, the saving grace of front heavy vehicles is they contain enough power to easily break the tires lose, its not becasue of superior weight distribution.

Not on the front tires.You don't overcome any traction limit on your front tires (perhaps a couple times front locking as you go into an apex, but thats not needed to drift, thats just style).

Thats proof enough right there.

Sorry until i can see some proof of your friends abilities i coultnt give them credit. R32s, plural? Id love to see the group of people you hang out with. Why not ask my friends who drift 240s Fcs and 86s their opinion on weight?
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Theres a difference bewteen drifting with power and drifting with handling charecteristics, that was my point to begin with.

[_PG_]

Originally posted by SidewaysGts
Muscle cars seem like perfect examples of your superior front heavy drifting vehicles.

OMG where did i say that? In fact, i think i even implied that mostly, lighter cars make better drift cars, hoever, for some peoples styles, a heavy car will work just as well, and many times (to me at least) seeing VIP type 4 doors drifting looks bad AS.S. I said that if you are drifting a big heavy car, its good to leave some weight in the front. Eveidently some of the best 4 door drifters agree with my unfounded theories

Dont look down upon the low reving torque engines either, in the end thats their key ability to breaking those wheels loose. Ive said it once ill say it again, the saving grace of front heavy vehicles is they contain enough power to easily break the tires lose, its not becasue of superior weight distribution.

Ability to break them loose and ability to keep them spinning at various speeds are different... I have no problems getting my 270 hp and 250 tourque loose... not big numbers by anyones standards, but i like to use my 2000-7200 (plus a couple hundred more if you count my fondness of SR revlimiters) power band throught the drift. Moot point though... thats preference. Im sure a huge v8 is juts as capable.

Sorry until i can see some proof of your friends abilities i coultnt give them credit. R32s, plural? Id love to see the group of people you hang out with. Why not ask my friends who drift 240s Fcs and 86s their opinion on weight?

ok let me fly them in from Japan to show you. Go look at some Grip videos... got a couple of my friends on there (vol. 4 and 6). Me and some US friends will be on Drift Society 2. In fact, one of my friends who was driving touge with us for the shoot has a 1JZGTE in his S13. Stiffer front springs eliminate excessive weight shifting... he drives that car touge more often than most people wipe their a.ss. How about we ask my friend Mark from Slide Squad (anyone remember Super Street article about Slidesquad back in 2001? Yeah, Mark and Dave have been around before most of us got into drifting). Anyways, he has RB25DET in S13 coupe. Loves it. Oh wait, I'm talking to him on AIM, he says:

MARK: you can overcome understeer with the right suspesnion tuning
ME: A little more front biasing helps keep the grip on the front tires?
MARK: That is true yes
MARK: because with more weight over the front wheels, its easier to do weight transfers
MARK: manji and feints
ME: keeps it more stable?
ME: like your as.s is just rotating around it?
MARK: i think so yea

Mark doesn't just drift, he/we grip touge a lot, too. (Fcuk his car is fast. When i drove it at a drift event i LOVED it. 400hp... Mmmmmmm)

What do we know, though? Plus, putting one of those big sedan's engines into an S13 makes more of a difference than driving one of those big sedans and taking out your rear interior and trunk (weight dist. % wise).

Theres a difference bewteen drifting with power and drifting with handling charecteristics, that was my point to begin with.

Seemed like your original point was to swap a 4 cilynder 3SGTE into a SUpra to make it "better" for drifting. I simply disagreed, and IMO, provided a sufficient evidence. So far your only counter point to my (and other peoples) theories is that old domestic Muscle cars dont drift, therefore we are wrong.... You seem to know a little bit about driving, so why say such a weak thing?

And FWIW, not all R32s (yes plural) are GTRs. GTS-t R32s are often times cheaper than S14s.

[Wayne]

its funny how alot of people attack your knowledge pg, seems like it happens in every thread and than it goes on and on