New Kid on the Block. My First post, and First Question

[Shinrar]

Hello to everyone out there! First off, I'd like to comment on how informative this forum has been. I've skimmed through, and read, a lot of the articles, and this seems to be A) Rather Informative, most especially compared to most boards out there, and B) Newbie Friendly!

I actually first became interested in drifting because of an accident I got into… I was visiting some friends, and was heading home. I was in a rush because it was getting close to curfew, and there had been a lot of traffic so I wasn’t going to make it without speeding. I was at a big, wide 270-degree turn, and I was going pretty fast (stupid mistake number 1: Going fast on a turn). It had been raining lightly, but I didn’t know because it hadn’t rained where I was, I hit a puddle, and oversteered. I somehow managed to get the car from going 80 MPH uncontrolled, to around 10 MPH before I finally ran off the road into the barrier. Probably the scariest moment in my life too. However, what I found odd, is that instead of losing complete control and hitting the barrier, I had managed to keep the car sliding sideways for a good amount of time.
Though I think I over countersteered, because I spun the other way, and back again before I hit the wall. Anyway, I did some research on keeping out of control cars under control (because I had almost managed to do it, and I like the saying “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me”), and I came across a lot of sites.

Anywho, after a lot of research and stuff, I think I know what happened when I had my accident. However, I was curious as to what all you knowledgeable people thought. What do you believe happened (as far as physics goes, like, my ‘rear tires broke traction’, or whatever) ? Oh yeah, a detail I forgot to mention, I was going uphill (that would be important). Not to steep, a few degree incline, but uphill non-the-less. And because the car is important, it is a 2001, Stock, PT Cruiser. Meaning: Light, FF, TCS, and ABS.

And this is just the first of many questions! I’m just full of them, but I’m trying to make sure I don’t ask a question that hasn’t been asked to death, so I’m going to continue looking down the threads for a while.

Thanks in advance for any words of wisdom! (Other than don’t do that again)

~Shinrar

P.S. Oh, and incase any of you are wondering why I care, I’m actually quite interested in cars. Though everything I know is book know-how, and no real world experience. I’d love to get my hands into some engines, or other car parts, but my parents won’t stand for it while dealerships exist… Stupid being 17 (till today) and being unable to afford my own car… but I’m hopping to fix that by buying a cheap car ASAP now that I can without parental permission. Still skimming the boards for what sort of cars you guys (and gals) recommend though.

[WeirdOddity]

Hey....Welcome to the newbie board, and whatever board you'll visit next.

I too, lack real-life experince, but here's what I think might have happened.

You said your PT cruiser was oversteering on a big turn and it went the other way and you hit the wall. I'm guessing it's because you applied throttle (or too much, dunno about FF drifting) or over-countersteer, and the car snapped back. Hopefully one of the more experienced guys can come in and check this theory.

Don't flame me if this is wrong...please?

[boygenius_89]

i concur. haha i said concur. anyways im guesing since you were rushing home you were probly not thinking bout drifting your pt uphill so you probly trying to not crash as opposed to trying to pull off a drift.

the physics of this (if that the kind of stuff your into) is that since the pt is an FF and it was with a wet surface, basically, most of you weight in your pt is on the front, your front tires stop much faster than your rear ones. so your back end goes into the turn faster (inertia) than your front end (since it is heavier and decelerates faster) so depending on how fast you are going into the turn and what kind of surface, your back end will come out from right behind you and you will spin out. seeing that it was in the rain your back tires slid out more than usual and you spun out.

and as for a car. get a cheap one that you can throw around and crash. and since ur 17 im guesing that your short on dough, so i would segest a 240sx and tell them to go lower if it is anything rediculous. but it should be realatively cheap and easy to get your hands on one.

[Parry]

Originally posted by boygenius_89
the physics of this (if that the kind of stuff your into) is that since the pt is an FF and it was with a wet surface, basically, most of you weight in your pt is on the front, your front tires stop much faster than your rear ones. so your back end goes into the turn faster (inertia) than your front end (since it is heavier and decelerates faster) so depending on how fast you are going into the turn and what kind of surface, your back end will come out from right behind you and you will spin out. seeing that it was in the rain your back tires slid out more than usual and you spun out.

I don't, this makes no sense. The inertia of the heavier front end means that it will decelerate more slowly, and not more quicly, than the lighter front end. Inertia, people...

From the sound of it there's nothing really complicated about what happened. You came barreling into the corner, probably nearing the edge of traction. For all I know you might have understeered through the puddle with the fronts, but either way they mostly maintain traction, but when the rears hit it they break loose, the rear end comes out on you, and you end up in a guardrail.

Nothing happened that you don't already know.

and as for a car. get a cheap one that you can throw around and crash. and since ur 17 im guesing that your short on dough, so i would segest a 240sx and tell them to go lower if it is anything rediculous. but it should be realatively cheap and easy to get your hands on one.

Everyone ever will suggest a 240sx . Really, your next car depends on three things...

1. what do you want to do with it (go fast? drift? get to work? move stuff?)
2. how much do you have to spend
3. your mechanical ability, and willingness to get your hands dirty. (Also, can you afford to have it in the driveway for a week while you figure out how to fix it?)

Answer those three questions and it will narrow down the coices quite a bit.

[boygenius_89]

decelerates more quickly as in stops faster. yea i see what u mean the weight doesnt really have to do with it (lil brain fart right thur) but this one is reallllly obvious and can be deduced from even a lil gt3 on the ps2. and everyone should know this...come on now inertia??? im only 15 and i know this. its friggin 8th grade physics. slide a toy car sideways and you should be able to see clearly what happend to your car that night.

[Shinrar]

First off, thanks. That is pretty much what I guess happened, minus the possible understeering through the puddle (that idea was new to me, and a possibility). From what I understand, if I was to ever attempt to do that on purpose, I'd have to A) Not countersteer too much, and B) be easier on any throttle brake applications (I probabaly slamed on the brakes, but I was so scared I don't remeber =P).

Originally posted by Parry

1. what do you want to do with it (go fast? drift? get to work? move stuff?)
2. how much do you have to spend
3. your mechanical ability, and willingness to get your hands dirty. (Also, can you afford to have it in the driveway for a week while you figure out how to fix it?)

1. I'm thinking along the line of a cheap car I can use to try out diffrent things. So Drift, go Fast (but not excessivly so, no need to have a car that can do a quarter mile in 10 seconds... Cause I'd have no-where to apply so much power), and maybe be able to drive around daily (Meaning, I want to keep all that heavy stuff that makes driving a little Luxurious, like AC, and not strip it down to make it light).

2. Thats pretty iffy. I think my parents would be willing to spend a little to help me out, cause it keeps me out of their car (which has been beaten up pretty badly, though only once was my fault. The other time I was backed into (curses hit and runners!), and sideswiped (Old people)). Out of just my pocket though, I can probably get a few thousand in (few - 3-7) if I wait a few months. My job is commission, so pay isn't very consistant. But thats just on the car, for any tweakings and stuff, I've got maybe $300 a month budget if I include the fact that I'll be paying for insurance and gas, and the fact that I save up half of my paychecks for emergancy funds.

3a. From personal experience, the only 'mechancial ability' is once I changed the exaust pipes on my motorcycle with the help of my dad (rather, I helped him), so it isn't to limited. But, I am a quick learner (compared to most people down here at least, not sure how fair I rate compared to all you people. Have to be a quick learner not to end up in a crushed tin-can), so as long as I have instructions, I can probably figure it out sooner or later.

3b. Afford to have it in the driveway a week... Hmm... Probably. I've got the PT, Motorcycle, & my parents two cars (A Truck [good for towing me when I mess up methinkings =P] and a caddy), plus some friends with cars to toat me around to places. So really, having it in the driveway would just mean I can't hang out with friends... But if it is in the driveway, that won't matter cause I'd rather be working on it than hanging with friends =D.

P.S. At the time of the accident, I was 17. Alas, I've gotten older, which probably means nothing, though you did mention it as a side comment, so i felt like correcting it. I'm 18 now (as of yesterday >.<)

[boygenius_89]

congrats. happy birthday

[UberSpeed]

back to your first question. Could this have happened? The car is goin pretty durned fast. He turns into the corner, and hits the puddle with his fronts. The front is heavier so it sinks the wheels into the bottom of the puddle, and he begins to turn as the front wheels are exiting the small body of water. Then, when he is turning more sharply, therefor encountering more G forces, the lighter rear end (unless you were hauling all your guitar equipment in the back or something) hits the puddle, hydroplanes, and the traction gives way, throwing the arse way out. anyone agree (or concur for that matter)?

[boygenius_89]

i concur. haha i said it again!!!!!
well i guess it would depend on how big was your bloody puddle that you ran over so i gues thatz a possiblity

[Parry]

3-7k, decent all around car, reasonably comfortable...that's a lot of cars.

Off the top of my head, some interesting ones might be...

(rear wheel drive cars)
-a really nice Nissan 240sx
-3-series BMW
-nice Camaro or Mustang
-a turbo Volvo (late model 700 series turbo, really nice 200 series)
-Miata
-FC RX-7
-MR2

(front wheel drive)
-Integra
-Civic hatch
-Golf GTI
-Neon RT or ACR
-Saab turbo

Just a few ideas that might be in your price range. Most of those cars have good potential and are reasonably fun to drive. It really depends what you want to do.

[boygenius_89]

i just think you spun your A$$ out tho. i mean combination of rain, driving fast, and oversteer i could have happened to most unexperience drivers.

[Shinrar]

Well yeah I just spun out, my question was, why it happened. Because in all the research i've done, FF Automatics with TCS tend to do everything in their power to not spin out. I was just curious as to the physics of how it happened. Now I've got a pretty good idea. Thanks.

Of those cars, 3 interest me.

The mustang (I've always liked mustangs =P), but they're like, everwhere down here. Oh well.

RX-7. Just cause they look neat.

And the Nissan, cause everyone mentions it, so it has to be pretty decent... I hope.

But, the mustang seems to be the best choice, cause my dad has this thing with American cars. If I get a Foreign one, my dad won't even consider helping me get it, or work on it (he knows more about mechanics than I do), or in a worst case scenerio, not let me park it in the driveway ^.^

But Mustangs are rather heavy, with a not so decent weight distrabution (more front heavy, can fix with some body fat reduction (carbon fiber hoods!) but that costs money ^.^). Are they still driftable? Even if it is harder, as long as it isn't insanley so, I'll make do. It'll make me better in the long run.

Any year model recomendations?

[UberSpeed]

Most definately opt for the 94-95 model year if you can find one. Why? These sport the semi new body style (at least they aren't piss ugly like the foxbodys) and in this model year the V8 models still used the big, brauny, torquey EFI pushrod 8 cylinder motor that has been around for ever. It comes stock with around 200 horsepower, but a massive 300 lb ft of torque! And with a new cam, which is pretty cheap as far as cams go, that number will greatly increase. Who wouldn't want that much torque for drifting? ALso, mods are very cheap, as there is an abundant supply of performance parts being produced every day, and also because of this, these motors are very cheap to fix. Now as far as handling goes, I know nothing about mustangs. So someone will have to help me on that one. Good luck!

[SidewaysGts]

The reason why it happened was already stated, when you turned in you went over the puddle, your back end lost traction and came out. FF drifting physics are a little different then rwd car physics, what happened more then likely is the intertia holding your back end probably died; once that happens the back end can actualyl violently "kick in" and tuck behind you, this motion tied together with your couner-steer (probably over coutnersteer) would easily spin you out the other way (once again because it was wet)

The car your looking for depends on what you want to do with it.

If drifting is your thing a few cars really coem to mind.

Ae86 (like my car) Theyre cheap and reliable, but you need to find one in good condition, shitty condition and your goign to be replacign a lot of parts (Theyre old). They have a few options like pwoer steering and AC, but then like manual windows (best of both worlds if you ask me haha)

The 240 sx is a great choice though i mst admit im starting to hate this car from just being sick of seeing it. THey have good power theyre not overly old good options on them, after market is huge blah blah.

A miata is a great drifting car ECEPT in all hoensty its too small, this may seem like a good thing but in reality is CAN be bad. They have a very small wheelbase, for something like autoX this is great and they outhandle most of the copmetition out there, but when it coems to drifting thigns can get difficult. short wheelbases make drifting fairly difficult, it becoems "Twitchy" and hard to control.

A fc is another great choice, middle weight car with great power, few options on them to make them comfortable. Problem is they require a bit more maitenence. Nothing over complicated, use really good mineral oil and change it abot 2000 miles, not 3000+. And dont let them over heat at all. Most find em to be unreliable but follow these 2 steps youll be fine with one, an NA will provide longer life though then a turbo of course for the simple heat reason.

[Shinrar]

Hmm... Just out of curiosity...

I'm not one to just stick to one thing without trying everything else. Would the mustang be a good car to try out all sorts of things, not just drift, in? Or would you recommend a diffrent car? I know it is a little off topic, considering this IS a drifting board, but hey, maybe one of you know.

And, I probably should make a new thread for this, but what ARE all the diffrent sorts of Automotive Sports Activities? Sides silly straight line drag racing. Yeah, it is fast and all... but where is the fun in going straight?