Drifters age 18-26 This is going to suck for us!

[nissanguy_24]

Dont forget the worst threat...

Also dont forget the Gays... i mean if *Censored**Censored**Censored* people get married everything we know and love will just turn to dust.... though we refuse to see.... The sacred institution of marriage... which for many years was "hey let me screw your daughter and ill give you political influence".. will be forever ruined!

well sorry for the sarcasm, but when i hear someone wants to admend the constitution to forcibly take away rights of other human beings... well i just dont know what to say, but i'd never vote for somone who goes along with that. Not tomention these arguements are the same arguements they used against interracial marriage in the south for years... Yes ladies and gentlemen Jim Crow is back, and now he hs a new name. Pay attention one and all because Our grand chilren will be asking us why people in our day did nothing to stop this.

On a related note i am pleased to announce a republican measure to admend the constitution was defeated overwelmingly in the republican controled senate. Aparently some republicans desided conservatism and small government ment the government not being able to tell you who to marry... I never got how it was okay for the government (in some's views) to stick there nose in your bedroom but not the gun rack... interesting double talk you have there.

The republican ultra conservative radical right (yeah you guys like being called names... hell if "Most liberal senator" is an insult then here you go..) needed 60 votes to even get the whol eissue to a vote, where a 2/3rds majority was needed.. they recieved 48.


EDIT: on second thought, i change my mind, i like the off topic forum now... i love political debates. so bring 'em on!

[sande]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp

[Weapon X]

I'm not a huge Bush fan, but I'm also not a fan of political debates on forums that arent political. I dont want to feel different about another member just because of his political standing, and unfortunately that happens often with me. Whatever...if you guys dont mind lighting eachother up on the board then I dont have a problem with it, but I'll fight the good fight with my vote

[Tsunami]

What exactly does "National Service" refer to, a military-type position but here at home or a civilian duty overeas?

Either way I absolutley hate the idea of a draft. We need to defend the country but forcing people to fight is absolutely wrong. If China was sitting at our doorsteps about to invade then it'd make sense but sending people all over the world to fight battles that don't affect us is b.s. If my country is threatened then yes I'll do my part, but I've never liked fighting and consider it needless under anything but the most extreme circumstances. I was for the war back around 9/11, we had to go get those responsible, but now we're sitting in Iraq with nothing to do but wait for terrorists to come shoot and bomb our boys.

I hope this doesn't happen, I'll be 26 at the end of 2k5 so hopefully I'll get out, but I've got a 20 year old brother at home that I love way too much to see him dragged into a needless conflict so Dubya can finish what his daddy didn't have the guts to finish.

Btw I've never heard Dubya state that God told him to go to war, besides Christians are instructed to be a loving and forgiving people. You have to remember that Bush may be using his faith as a ploy to get re-elected.

Also don't automatically go thinking Kerry is gonna be you're best buddy just cuase he's a Democrat. You've got to remember that Kerry notoriously double-talks all the time, which means he'll say whatever's necessary to make himself rich and powerful. Plus remember, Kerry will support measures to eliminate the sanctitiy of marriage and our faith, but Bush will defend it. One thing the man has done is not cave to the high pressures of the homosexual and anit-Christian community. Ps we got at Democratic governor here in Illinois and all he's done is cut jobs to line his pockets.

I want to make it clear I have nothing against a person of other religion or sexual orientation, but as a U.S. taxpayer I will not support someone stripping the ten commandments from public schools in the name of tolerance and having Churches censored for simply stating the fact that they believe homosexuality is wrong. Not everbody belives what I do, but a majority of Americans believe in Jesus and want to be able to express their faith in God. People need to stand up for what they belive in or we'll lose the founding principles that make this country great.

[nissanguy_24]

Religion is fine. However when you make laws based on religion that is not. We have seperation church and state. Meaning Our laws will not reflect any 1 religious belief, and indeed not reflect religious beliefs at all. Thats the great thing about this country, if you dont believe in something you dont have to do it. unless your being drafted. However when you make a law that bans something like homsexual marriage outright, then you are taking a right away from all Americans.

Our constitution was designed to allow the majority to rule, however we have a republic so that the majority can rule with out crushing minority groups under its foot. Never forget that. If you look back at laws that your parents and grandparents were okay with. Segeration laws, and you think thats okay. Then go ahead and support this new round of segeration. Because our children and grandchildren will be looking back the same way we do.

Among people of my age homosexuality is barely a problem. Imagine how the next generation will feel? why do you think they want a constitutional admendment so bad? so that when older people die off, it wont be easy for there children to repeal this archaiac law.

And yeah im an Athiest, perhaps even an Agnostic. I call no man master, and i dont feel any organization should control my thought.

No one here said kerry was a great guy, however bush had his chance, time to give someone else a go. Besides if kerry is elected and the house and the senate stay in republican control at least we ill have a balance. You know checks and balances? The country is always better of when no one party controls al branches of government. That just leads to trouble.. you know the old saying about power corrupting.

[SilverGhost]

i love this...a heated discussion about laws and the gorvenrment, being fought by a bunch of us gearheads who aret what people would call "complete law abbiding citizens..."

i always get asked by people who im gonna vote for in the next election, and what my take on all this is, and my answer is always the same: i will prolly vote for bush, but it doesnt matter too much to me cause im not going to be here too terribly much longer....im not planning on living in the suburbs and raising a family in an economy house with a small garden and a dog (complete with preppy dog house)... imma prolly live in a decent sized appartment, work full time at a performance shop (hopefully somewhere around Osaka) and drive skylines and silvias....from my experience with women, touge and drifting usually isnt too high on their list of "cool things to do"...but now im getting off on a tangent...in fact, i totally forgot where i was taking this, so im just gonna stop...feel free to kinda ignore this post if you want to...

[Ripper]

Originally posted by svtxchinoy
Bush has too much dirty laundry to be even considered for re-election. He's sending our guys out to fight and die for what?? A cause that he can't even prove in our faces. Oh, but he knows there was weapons of mass destruction in Iraq because GOD told him so. Great, so were dealing with a guy who talks to god about going to war. Amazing that a god who sent his son down to bring peace to the world and save us now wants us to go to war over something that hasn't even been proven. We've been there for over a year and your telling me you haven't found anything yet?? The guy can't even talk right:

“As you notice, when there's a hole in the ground and a person is able to crawl into it in a country the size of California, it means we're on a scavenger hunt for terror, and find these terrorists who hide in holes is to get people coming forth to describe the location of the hole, is to give clues and data. And we're on it.”

“It's a different kind of combat mission, but, nevertheless, it's combat, just ask the kids that are over there killing and being shot at.”

“In my judgment, when the United States says there will be serious consequences, and if there isn't serious consequences, it creates adverse consequences.”

“The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur.”

Doesn't he make total sense?? And the records that showed his military service was inadvertenly destroyed??? Now, the FCC is trying take away our freedom of speech from us. Yeah, he's done a lot of great things. And for a bunch of people who believe in descency, they sure gamble a lot in Las Vegas. And with the Republican convention coming to NY, we seem to have an influx of prostitutes. Yeah, real decent people. Sorry about the rant, just can't believe whats happening to the country.

heh you make G.w. bush look like a crackhead. anywho next thign you know, he's gonna be browsing these forums haha oh the thought. np for the rant, i personally, enjoy reading peoples opinion about politics and whatnot. it's pretty interesting. also, i wouldn't mind goin to war for this country.

[Tsunami]

Originally posted by nissanguy_24
Thats the great thing about this country, if you dont believe in something you dont have to do it. unless your being drafted. However when you make a law that bans something like homsexual marriage outright, then you are taking a right away from all Americans.

Segeration laws, and you think thats okay. Then go ahead and support this new round of segeration.

And yeah im an Athiest, perhaps even an Agnostic. I call no man master, and i dont feel any organization should control my thought.

you know the old saying about power corrupting.

1. Yes I agree that it's okay to do whatever you want just as long as you don't hurt anybody and that makes our country great, but sometimes people do cross the line...Christians are being forced to remove symbols and words from public, symbols like the 10 commandments and manger scenes, some want to remove all anti-homosexual text from the bible. These 2 thousand year old priniples and symbols are being challenged by some new fad that's only been around for a few years.

2. I never once said segregation was ok. I believe that all people ages, races, religions should have the same rights....freedom to do what they want when they want. But homosexuality is different. They want people who don't agree with it to totally change their religion and way of life just to accept them. I don't care what you do, where you do it or who you do it with, just don't sit and force me to accpet it. Homosexual marriages cross that line because that means the government is forcing people who don't approve of gays to approve of them. That is also tyranny. Every man should have the same rights, life, liberty, and the pusuit of happiness. No one should be considered special no matter what race, religion or sexual orientation they are.

3. I like you let no organization run or control my thoughts. Just because I believe in Jesus doesn't mean I'm a puppet of Pat Robertson and the Christian Coalition or some TV preacher. I base my beliefs on the bible, the only real way to gauge Christianity. The only man I call master is Jesus, becuase he lived a perfect life, which I could never do, and when base you're life on Christian principles you learn to love all people no matter what. Did you know the bible tells us to love and misister to all people? Jesus didn't say homosexuals go to hell and to hate them. No, Christ tells us to love all people and tell them the news of Jesus Christ. We Christians are merely the messengers of Christ. What you do with the message is up to you. Jesus accepts people for who they are, and many homosexuals have come to Christ and become heterosexual in the process. Not because they were forced to, but because they were treated kindly by Christians and wanted to convert. To know what true Christianity is you have to base your opinions on the Bible, not some preacher, the history of the church, or what anyone, including me, says.

4. Yes power can corrupt but the liberals have been in power for 8 years, and conservatives for only 4. After having to hear Hillary harp about her lesbian friends and Bill sending billions to Russia it's refreshing to have someone restore a little bit of our religious heritage back to the nation.

Most importantly I consider you to be a friend, so I don't want some silly argument to come between 2 car guys. Everybody's got a right to their opinion in this country, so I don't wanna ruin a frienship for the sake of politics.

[nissanguy_24]

im not mad at you man, im just stating my opinions.


The fact is the 10 commandments are religious ideas, Not laws. Putting it in a public school or public area like a court is the same as the government promoting a paticular religion or idea. Remember they arent "forced to remove them" they put them there originally against the word of the constitution, they put them in public area. And if 100 percent of the people agreed then it wouldnt be an issue, but the fact is that wont ever happen. Feel free to put such things in churchs and private property. But if its a public area it has no business being there. That is the basic idea of seperation of church and state.

Its not like the government is trying to stamp those things out. But there is a good sized minority in this country that arent christians and dont need christian doctorin in there face. Hey would you be okay with putting up some wiccan beliefs ? or buddist ideas in schools and court houses? What about a giant statue of the buddah on the white house lawn? The problem is having this stuff on government buildings and areas is the same as promoting that idea. We are in a age where we need not let religion run our society. I would be personally offended by any of those above mentioned things. Especialy commandments like "Thou shall have no other gods before" Im sure our shinto friends would have a problem with it too.

No you didnt say segregation was okay. You just said you think there should be things certain groups of people shouldnt do. I also think its against the natural definition of marriage to let those people marry. I mean we all know that marriage is between a white man and a white woman. The idea of mixing the races is against god's order...

I am purposly using archaic ideas to prove a point. The minute we deside theres somethings certain people should be allowed to do, and others shouldnt be allowed to do then by definition that is segregation. Trust me, most people who supported segregation and slavery didnt consider it a bad thing at the time, just as im sure you dont consider it bad to not let gays get married.

You said you dont like it because thats the government forcing you to accept it even though your religious beliefs dont allow it. However thats a religious idea, you dont like it because the legal institution of marriage wont match your rleigious idea.. Once again your religious ideas should have no barring on our Law. Seperation of church and state. In fact by admending the constitution you are forcing your belief on not only *Censored**Censored**Censored* people but all people of all generations down the road.

And lets look at that, when we "force" you to accept *Censored**Censored**Censored* people, you dont like it because of religion, however when we forceably take away the right to marry from *Censored**Censored**Censored* people. Not only are WE taking away a right but we are also taking away all the legal benefits of those rights. Hurting people not only privately but also financially in alot of situations. All in all i think its better to let religious people just dislike it. The same as some people just have to accept the fact that black people get to vote. And interracial marraige is okay. Okay to the point that its accepted in most areas of the country so much that its not even considered a problem. But believe you me it was a scandal just 30-40 years ago.

Im glad you dont let crazy people tell you what to think. But you say christians are followers of christ. Christ was a pacifist, Thus all "good" christians should vote for pacifist, They should never wage a war. Yet christians overwelmingly support president bush who is not a pacifist. I see a problem here. Its why i dont buy into church groups. I personally have no problems with the teachings of christ, hes a nice guy. Although im not a pacifist, nor do i believe i should worshop his god, So i dont call my self a christian.

Is it possible to be an agnostic christian?

You say the liberals were in power for 8 years.. No Bill clinton was in power for 8 years. The republicans controled the house and the senate for the most part during those 8 years, giving the liberals a fair amount of power, but not the overwelming power the conservatives have now.And dont forget for 16 years before Clinton it was a similar story the conservatives had a majority control of the government. The only real power liberals have are young people. Young people overwelmingly dont buy into alot of the stuff conservatives preach. And boy do they preach.. because they havent been a small government party sence regan, so all they can do is preach.

And as for religous heritage? like i said, arent christians pacifist? christ was. Many early christians wouldnt fight back even when threatened with there lifes... Thats whats difficult about pacifism.. Aside from that heritage is fine, but religion shouldnt be writing our laws.

You are my friend.. im not taking anything personally. but i feel its good to get these ideas out in the open.

My thing on *Censored**Censored**Censored* marriage is this. It doesnt hurt me. Actualy outlawing it takes away my rights. Just like i have the right to bare arms, i dont own any arms but i like knowing i can if i want. The idea of the government telling me who i can marry. Its very communist. The government needs to stay out of the lifes of everyday citizens.

[Tsunami]

I understand where you're coming from. Anytime religion has run a government somebody or some sect grabs the power and people are miserable. You're simply saying that you want to be protected from religion running you're life. I totally understand that religion shouldn't completely run a country. The devil loves to use powerful people claiming to be Christians so that people will think of us as a tryannical, power-hungry sect. You have to have certain laws that ensure that doesn't happen. We base alot of our laws on Chrisianity like don't kill and don't steal and if we start going back on our Christian heritage those laws lose credibility. Laws based on religion start out as a good thing but can be corrupted and missused. Really it's an incredibly complex issue.

Also it's interesting that you say that homosexual marriage goes against god's order. So you do believe in god in some way, shape or form. I'm just kind of wondering exactly what you're beliefs are.

As far as the pacifistic goes Christians were not always pacifistic. Somtimes they had to fight for their country. Israel, before the time of Christ had to fight many enimies just to survive. Christ wants us to pray for our enimes that they come to him so they can know a full life and have eternal life after they die. I believe he wants us to forgive them simply so we don't become obsessed with hating people and let hate take over our lives. But that is just my opinion.

Either way we could sit and talk for hours about this and we both have good and solid points about it. But usually religous and political discussions turn out to be endless and can hurt friendships, and I don't want that to happen. I defend my religion when I have to, but I don't like talking about it 24/7, and sometimes when you try explain you're views people think you are forcing it on them and you do more harm than good. I want to be a reflection of Christ, not a detterent to him. Anyway I could go on about this all day, but honestly I'm just here to talk drifitng.

[nissanguy_24]

I would like to point out that israel before christ and in modern day are not christians. One of the big things christ taught over his jewish brothers was pacifism. His version of judiasm was a pacifist version.

As to me saing homosexuality is against gods order, that was just sarcasm. I dont think there is any order put forth by any god. I was trying to point out people once claimed interracial marriages were against gods order. It took certain judges pushing people around to end such a thing. Remember desegeration was forced upon the south by a handful of judges. Personally i think it was a good thing..

but you ask about my personal beliefs? Do i believe in the christian/jewish/islamic god? i guess i really dont. I never put much stock into the idea of a supream being. I dont know, but i guess i look at it from a scientific point of view. Meaning all possibilitys exist unless they can be proven otherwise. I really have found little need in my life for gods. Although i do have a big interest in mythology of all sorts.

I guess thats partly why i dont put much stock into the bible. If you study mythology you can see the way most biblical stories evolve over the years. Not only that but you can see the developement of the early hebrew religion.. Hell for many years they werent strict monothiest. They worshoped the same god christians do today. one of his name's was "El" In fact if you look it up all the angel's names end in El.. most of there names mean somethng like "the light of god" or "power of god" ect.. ending in El.. even the word Angel ends in el, even the word israel does... But the thing is El was the name of the supream god in near by cananite mythology. In that set of beliefs they had the god baal, Who was very very popular. So much so that he was even worshoped by many early hewbrews. When they were not strict monothiest that was considered okay as long as they held El above any other god. In fact that may be the basis of the first commandment.. the middle english translation being "thou shall have no other gods before" which implies it was okay to have other subordinant gods. And indeed it was popular.

Interestingly enough Baal was called Baal-Zebul which means prince baal. Later it was corrupted into the negative Baal-Zebub. baal zebub became known as beelzabub the fallen angel. See how that worked? as the early hewbrews became strict monothiest they desided there were no other gods.. but someone like baal became an angel or a servent of god, but then became a fallen angel, probably as an escuse to destroy any shrines or temples of his.

Mythology is very interesting. of course would know beelzabub as satan today. An interesting sidenote Baal was the son of El.

If you study it you can see these beliefs evolve. there not mysterious or divine, they are just stories and ideas people have had forever.

I really dont put much faith into these beliefs. I see nothing to show that modern christian beleifs are any more valid then norse or greek mythology. If theres a god or gods, then good for them... i dont bug them and they dont bug me. Works out well that way.

Religion to me is a way to explain what cant be explained but in this day and age we can explain so much. yet there are still many questions which can not be answered. So like i said, from a scientific point of view i try not to discount any beliefs.

Overall i tend to respect other peoples beliefs, but i must put my foot down when those beliefs are transfered into my government. i believe it possible to have whatever beleifs you wish and not push them on anyone.. but writing laws based on them is not a good way to accomplish this.. You said our laws are based on christian ideas like dont kill and dont steal> honetly do you think the christians invented those ideas? they existed alot longer then the christians, or even the hewbrews. Actually the christians have historically done a very bad job at follow those two. I could do a list, but i think we all know our history of what has been done in the name of christ.

Anyways you asked my religious beliefs, there you go.

[sobe]

what a guy, you amaze me

you're seriously someone i could trust my life with, and i havent even meet you, i just talk to you and read what you type...

thanks for being around and helping me out SMC...


oh and about you being old and not being able to be immature

thats sarcasm coming from a 16 year old XD

[5Z S13]

worst comes to worst and the draft does go through, I'll just join the navy when my letter demanding military service arrives on my doorstep. War related service without risks, i.e. joining the navy=better than getting shot at for something I don't support

[T3h m4d]

fellas dont hate on bush he cant introduce a bill the people of america do

[nissanguy_24]

He can tell his party thats in control of the congress to do so.