Drifters age 18-26 This is going to suck for us!

[GRiDRaceTech]

Bush is very nice to Dems... he's passed a ton of liberal legislation because he has to have funding for the war on Iraq. (You guys want WMDs? Saddam Hussein WAS the WMD.)

I have nothing against people whose political positions vary from mine, especially if they're smart about their position.

That said, I have the same problem as Weapon X... I tend to view people differently if their views are different from mine. (Especially closed-minded liberals... I have no problem with moderate Democrats.)

[EasySlyder]

what!?!

How long do you think this draft is going to last

[nissanguy_24]

History has proven that liberals are closed minded people. Liberals were against freeing the slaves.. Liberals were against letting women vote. liberals were against desegergation, Liberals were for jim crow. And now liberals are against extended equal rights to homosexuals.

Very closed minded people.

Actually that was all sarcasm, see closed minded liberals were for all those things. long before they were considered the norm. I think you just refer to closed minded people as those who dont agree with you.

And as for bush being friendly to the democrats before.. Why? because he has to spend money? I guess you figure democrats get off on spending money? Our debt is now 520 billion dollars for this year alone. Reagan spent more money raised more of a debt then any one else at that point. Bush senior spent alot but not as much as reagan and bush junior has spent even more then reagan. Carter spent fairly little in his term. And Clinton spent very little in his term. So going back sence the carter administration we can see that Republicans are the spend heavy party. Not Democrats. Furthermore Republicans seem to aprove of spending money that we dont have. not a very conservative idea.


The republicans just seem to not care about the debt. Remember we have to pay all of that off at some point. We are just putting it off until later. Basicly the 12 years of republican rule left us with such a high debt. Were we suposed to not raise taxes? Remember conservatives are very big into personal responsibility, Thats why they dont like social programs and the like. Yet they see no problem putting off huge debts for another administrator or generation to pay off. And see no problem bailing out huge corporations when they go broke.. of course small businesses.. well tough luck for them.

It seems the republican party is no longer the party of small government, personal freedom, light spending and personal responsibility. They have simply became the party that panders to church groups, sticks there nose in my bedroom and spends like no other. and thats ignoring everything bush has done recently...

Speaking of which you talk about weapons of mass destruction. Remember that was just one reason we were given for going to iraq. Others popped up as soon as the original was discredited. Such as Alqueda being linked to iraq. Bush even went as far as to imply al queda and saddam were partners, and on the verge of launching an assult on america. To this day he cant talk about iraq with out mentioning september 11th. Which is misleading. they had nothing to do with one another. Where there alqueda guys in iraq? im sure there were a few. i mean hell all the september 11th guys lived in america for years. but that doesnt mean bush has a connection to al queda. Nor was there any joint plans or strategy to attack America.

Actualy iraq could barely muster a defence against us, they had basicly no army left. They had no way of striking america. They had no active nuclear program, and they had depleted there chemical weapons supply long ago. Though im sure a few canasters still exist somewere in the desert. Remember we were told this guy was a threat to us, an imediate threat... i dont buy that "some time down the road" stuff, because in theory any country could become our enemy some time down the road.

So far a number of people have quit or resigned from the white house, each one said the same thing the white house wasnt prepared for terrorism, before september 11th they didnt even consider it an issue. They were warned repeatedly and just ignore it. As soon as september 11th happened bush wanted to find a way to blame iraq. and every time the white house comes out and says "This guy just doesnt like us, hes a liberal, its a conspiracy against us " I could almost buy that the first time.. but 4 or 5 times... yeah right...

And many of these guys were hard line conservatives, one of which had served as a security adviser in every administration sence reagan. Hell bush even ignored a memo called "Osama bin laden determined to attack with in the united states" in which it suggest bin laden is planning to hijack planes for different reasons and can be ready to strike as early as september. This was late summer of 01.

They even had rice up there claiming it was not very clear what the memo was about. and wasnt really about bin laden attacking america.. thats the famous line where they ask her what it was called and she goes " i think... it... was... called.. Osama bin laden determined to attack with in the united states.."

Well after they could find to al queda links in iraq they told us that we were there to free the iraqi people and to spread democracy. When that went poorly they said we were there because saddam was a bad guy and we have to take him out. Okay so are we going to stop with saddam? cause theres alot of bad guys. Of course the republicans are suposed to be the party of personal responsibiliy. So why are we fighting wars for and freeing people who wont fight for it them selfs? oh right we went there for the WMDs... i mean Al Queda.. i mean. um...

you see the problem here? and why we have been screwing around in iraq North Korea has announced they have nuclear weapons and the ability to strike the west coast of the united states, if they dont get what they want. Not tomention they have been firing missiles over the head of the japanese for years. Remember our allies, we have to defend them if something goes down.

Bush likes to say hes tough and indeed his suporters claim that hes tough. Yet i recall bush sitting on his hands as the chinese took apart our spyplane and imprisoned our airmen for 2 months or so. He didnt even deman them and the plane back. We never did get the spy plane back.

The fact is bush had an aproval rating of something like 30 percent september 10th, and 90 something percent september 12th. He knows that as long as we are at war his aproval ratings will be elevated. I believe thats the real reason were at war with iraq. Why people are dieing. Many Americans, Many times more wounded badly. And many many times more innocent iraqis dead.

I dont see why conservatives so blindly follow this man. hes not very conservative at all. He talks about *Censored**Censored**Censored* marriage and stuff to keep the religious right on his side. But aside from that and being a hawk i dont see how hes a conservative. The only semi conservative thing he has done is lower taxes alittle. but is that worth everything else? is that worth selling our future down the drain? i dont think so.

See the problem is the real war on terror hasnt been going so well sence we ousted the taliban. so we need other things to keep us supporting bush. The real problem with the war on terror is it cant just be a military war. Thats like trying to cure stinky feet with perfume.. It doesnt really stop the stink, just covers up one of the symptoms. We need to find the cause of terrorism and end it. Then we can worry about fighting the guys who take up arms against us. The thing with Iraq is all we managed to do is piss off more middle eastern guys. We have no doubtably created more terrorist by going there then we have "killed' and i mean real terrorist NOT iraqi gurrella fighters. Because we have killed abunch of them. No i mean the terrorist sitting in saudi arabi going "look what the americans have done this time. im going to fly over there and blow up something"

The problem is the cause of most international terrorism and indeed anti american sentiment is bad american foreign policy. Forexample under reagan we suported and armed both saddam and the taliban. Not exactly the nicest guys to support. No wonder the arabs arent big fans. The fact is we have basicly done what ever we wanted to the middle east over the years regardless of what happens to them. And indeed the democrats have done it too, and it goes before us. The brits did the same thing. In order to stop the cause of terrorism we need to reconize the cause, and in order to reconize the cause of terrorism we need to realize we have done bad things. We are in error in alot of ways. Things like iraq are the perfect example.

Sorry for making this so long. But i feel if you see it the way i do you will not be so quick to support anything bush says. Actualy wont be so qucik to support anything anyone says. Im no partisan but i am deffenately liberal in many ways.. but im my own kind of liberal. Im a kind of liberal who uses, get this common sense. Im the kind of liberal who is for the second admendment? why? the same reason im for *Censored**Censored**Censored* marriage, i think the government shouldnt be running our life. I think we should keep as many personal freedoms as possible.

I guess my "mistake" is i look into history too much and learn from previous mistakes, then i take the time to think things out instead of let a political party tell me what to think.

Anyways i wrote enough my fingers are bothering me.

[Ex-Cat]

Oh no...a draft that most likely would never even happen, let's get scared! Hey kids, if you're going to live in the country and gobble up all the benefits why don't you try working for those benefits sometime? I've been doing so for the past four years and will continue to do so for at least another four. If you're not man enough to accept responsibility then I really don't think you should be living in this country. Believe me, we don't want to see you wearing our flag on your arm if all you're going to do is whine.

Nissanguy: I've got your solution to the middle east all worked out. Send us to carpet bomb the entire area until you can see the crater from space. Then there's no reason to worry about terrorists from the middle east and I won't ever have to worry about some rag head drilling me on my return trip from trying to help his ignorant *Censored**Censored**Censored*.

[my 1 88 u]

Originally posted by Ex-Cat

Nissanguy: I've got your solution to the middle east all worked out. Send us to carpet bomb the entire area until you can see the crater from space. Then there's no reason to worry about terrorists from the middle east and I won't ever have to worry about some rag head drilling me on my return trip from trying to help his ignorant *Censored**Censored**Censored*.

RACIST

[nissanguy_24]

i am pretty speachless about how quick he is to propose genocide. No wonder they arent greatful. But then again im a firm beliver in the idea that you dont need to kill abunch of people to help them.

[Ex-Cat]

I'm not racist, I just have a strong hatred for anybody who tries to put large flaming holes in either myself or my aircraft. It's just that simple. I suppose not having any knowledge of what that feels like one would assume that you shouldn't talk about that, but I guess one would assume wrong.

Edit: I'm not trying to be a *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* when I say that, it's just something that you seriously have no understanding of. There's no worse feeling than watching your radar, missile and then master caution all come on after stressing your mind/body for the past nine hours.

[Feint]

Nissanguy check out this game www.bushgame.com

It goes into a lot of things you've mentioned and a lot more.It shows a lot of ties and how he's screwing the country up,also...it's funny as hell and kicks *Censored**Censored**Censored*...Someting to pass time with..

[BENJO]

im confused, didnt we leave iraq a couple weeks ago? and why would there be a draft if we still got a grip of reserves left?

[nissanguy_24]

Listen, the draft rumor is fake. However there are actual bills and discussion in front of congress right now about resinstituting the draft. As for having a grip of reserve left. I dont know how much we have left, we are now calling up retired military personal, which is the first step before a draft.

So excat, i didnt realize the iraqi air force invaded america and shot at our planes. So in your genocide plane who all do you want to kill? you did mention carpet bombing the entire middle east. That sounds racist to me. I dont recall being at war with all of the middle east.

Ill give you one thing, I've not been shot at. And i can see how that would change ones opinion of people. On top of that fact that i am forgiving to fault. However we have been the ones who have invaded the middle east on several ocasions and we are the ones to constantly meddle in there affairs. If we ignore our own faults then we can never hope to end the blood shed. And im sorry but i refuse to consider genocide as a viable solution.

I never understood why it was okay to echo the calls of hitler as long as it was about the middle east. And yes i mean hitler, My own bush loving grandmother (who lived dearing world war 2!) said with no hesitation that a good 'final solution' to iraq would be to "send a bomb there and nuke them" now i think she doesnt understand a single themonuclear device wont kill every iraqi. However she did basicly call for nuclear carpet bombing to end the iraqi solution.

I was pretty horrified, this sounds alot like hitlers final solution to the jewish problem, to use his words..

I dont understand why this is suddenly okay. And i probably never will.

[Ex-Cat]

I didn't say that the Iraqi air force ever came over to this side, but they did try to push around Kuwait. I'm talking about being shot at while patrolling the no-fly zone as well as over Afghanistan. Those Taliban punks did come over here, I don't think you'll deny that one. I know it would be difficult for you to understand having never been exposed to anything close to combat but whether you like it or not, it does become a personal thing. When I see a stinger (yes, I know how they got there) break through the clouds towards me I can assure you that global politics is the last thing on my mind...the guy wants to kill me, no other way around it. It's nothing against the people, I'd say the same thing about any country that started trouble.

[nissanguy_24]

Yeah your right.

But i think we need to look beyond the immediate.. for what ever reasons we are in iraqi right now. its done and we can only try to make the best out of it (this does not mean giving the thumbs up to those who put us there) However we need to look at what we have done wrong And nock it off. Lets face it if we would of just left the middle east alone we would of not being having as many problems over there.

the stringers are a great example. We should of kept our noses out of THAT conflict. Of course we look at it with hindsight now but overall we need to be alot more careful about when and where we exercise our power. The problem is people in power dont give a *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*.. they arent being shot at after all. They dont have to live in those countrys afterwords.

To me it goes beyond george bush or john kerry. It comes down to us needing a basic change in our foreign policy. And im not talking about total isolationism. We learned that mistake from the world wars. However we in my opinion we need to be alot more careful in the future.

And like i said it turns out all the reasons we were given for going to iraq where false. There may of been some legitiment reasons. Such as them testng the no fly zones and just the overall fact bush was a jerk. but we need to ask our selfs if those were valid? and aside from that those werent the reasons we were given. Lets face it we were basicly lied to. I dont care if george bush pulls a baby out of a burning house tomorrow i refuse to reward those lies of his with a vote.

And ill be honest, even if there was never a war in iraq, me and bush dissagree very very differently on domestic and foreign policies so i wouldnt of voted for him anyways. But i'd me alot more willing to believe the guy if he actually was frank with us once in a while. And i know, its not his fault, everything is someone else's fault. As a military man i wonder how you feel about the top guy not taking responsibility? sadly it probably happens more then it should in this world. And i mean real responsibility. Not like rumsfield standing up and saying he takes full responsibility for the iraqi prison thing, then not actually getting any repercussions.. when you say you take full responsibiliy you take it. That means when the first girl was up under a court martial or preliminary trial orhowever it works he should of been standing there with her. I mean at the very least thats a firing offence and rumsfield has not be effected 1 way by it.

[KAUAI KANE]

bahh doesn't affect me i am already in the U.S.M.C.

[dorimilk]

*Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* this. It was their own decision if they wanted to go into the armed forces or not, now they're saying that it's required. It kinda seems like breaking a freedom to me. **Gets ready to move to Japan**

[mranlet]

I don't really want to touch a post like this, but the draft proposal was from a Democrat trying to get the republicans with sons and daughters to think about the "what if it was your kid" factor when voting on issues dealing with war and foreign policy - it's not something that we will really have to be concerned with.

-MR
PS - read "THE NATION"