SR or KA

[nissanguy_24]

Re: SR or KA

Theres been alot said on this forum, by guys with more hands on experience then my self about these two motors, so i wont argue with it. Except for 1 thing.

someone said the KA is alot heavier. i beleive SCC weighed there two engines as they swapped in a SR and the KA was only like 4 pounds heaver... As any one else weighed these? or the car right before and after? i would love more numbers on this..

Originally posted by 180sx2nr8u
this may be a stupid question, but is driftin with the KA motor stupid? is the power the only thing, or does the motor have characteristics that might affect drifting? any help on this would be appreciated.

Is drifting a KA motor stupid? by no means, in fact you can drift perfectly fine with a stock NA KA.. many do. in fact you should learn on one, and worry about upgrading its power once your skills have reached the limits of the car. Unless you also want to drag race or what no in the mean time.

The KA is deffenately going to give you more low end power and a thicker powerband And pound for pound of boost more power, due to its larger displacement.

It is said the SR20's interneals will take more boost. That is something i cant prove, only mention what i've heard, i know alot of KA guys say there block is tougher.. but how often do you push a car's power beyond its block? well i havent, im sure there are people who have.

The SR 20 will probably be able to rev higher, all other things being equal due to its shorter stroke. Some see this as an advantage others a disadvantage. Most guys i hear of spent roughly the same on a Turbo KA as they would on a SR swap. there are exceptions, but i think its fair to say the prices are similar.

SR is illegal in california no mater what.

But so are most Turbo KAs. Most that is, any cheap backyard turbo setup you pieced to gether for cheap will be. if your out of state, then it will be fine, but so will the SR.

SR comes with a petty a crummy engine from the factory. Though its really fine for drifting, if your looking for bigger numbers, know you will then have to upgrade it later. Intercooler too.

The SR will often have less miles on it then the KA, unless you happen to have or find a real low millage KA.

My KA has may miles on it and runs fine. i've seen alot like that. Would you boost it? its up to you.

Both are great nissan engines, Nissan fans really shouldnt argue with one another about whats better. Just know that each person has his own preferance. So its up to you, get more educated about the engines, talk to guys who are running setups like the one your interested in and see how they work.

As it was mentioned earlier, you could upgrade the KA with a naturally aspirated setup, you will never make the kind of power as you would with a turbo, but Drifting isnt exactly about power. Look at the ae86 guys..

And im certain even putting 180 hp to the wheels would make your car alot more fun to drive around in.

Anyways its up to you. If i made a mistake somewhere on this please someone inform me.. that is with fact.. heh no opinions guys..

Drifting has more to do with the driver then the car i believe, especialy more so then other motorsports. So your first thing should be get better. Lets face it, even the best of us need to get better.

[hachiroku-fc3s]

Man we are some long winded SOBs. But you are correct for the most part except the all things being equal except the stroke. I have been wanting to get into head design but I will give you just a taste so I can not make this a wasted post. The two have completely different head designs. The bottom ends are similar, But the Sr has a hydrolic rocker arm setup with one lobe per two valves and a rocker arm stopper, while the KA has a cam on bucket style with one lobe per valve. The SR setup, while less stable, actually allows for more aggressive cam profiles. So its not just the stroke you are working against. But you can get decent revs out of the KA and the torque numbers will surpass those of the SR. Both blocks are stout and the forged rods in the KA will work for big numbers.

edit: had to correct my spelling though there are prob still plenty of errors.

[nissanguy_24]

LOL to be honest i didnt go into it thinking it would be long, just i would throw out a few points. ended up being that long..

Thanks for the info on the head design. You know personally im alittle sweet on the SR, but you know..

[foilman]

The factory KA rods ARE forged AND shotpeened from the factory and are VERY stout. The pistons are the weak link, mainly because of the compression ratio they cause. Even those are good for 350 hp or more. I'm going to bow out now. I suggest those looking for 240 info go searching on Freshalloy's forums.

[240sxdrifter]

SR vs KA motor weight

SSC (May 2002) says that the SR w/ transmission, turbo, and alternator weighs 490lbs. While just the KA24E weighs is at 493lbs. Also, someone said that KA's have oil squirters. That is not true. The KA24E (89-90) doesn't come equiped with these, while the KA24DE does. Just my 2 cents.

[hachiroku-fc3s]

OK, here's the deal, I dont give a d... about the KA24E. You can call it a POS PITA motor all you want and I will not bat an eye. That one blows, Im taking up for the de. Sorry if I dont refer to it as KA24de or det every time. But thanks for the clarification.

[GRiDRaceTech]

The SR20DET is rated at 202-260bhp. That is equal to 167.05whp- 215.02whp, using a parasitic loss of 17.3%. A full SR20DET swap (transmission, complete engine, and alternator) weighs approximately 50 lbs less than a KA24DE engine, transmission, and alternator. ( I found 540lbs for KA24DE/tranny/crossmember/steering rack combo weight, from SCC.) Spend the same amount of money on the SR20DET as on the KA24DE and you'll be at about the same amount spent for 200whp. (I'm figuring engine swap into the equation.) You'll probably have some money left over if you build the KA up to 200whp, so I could whip you up a hood. Then your weight difference is down to 20lbs. Take out the a/c and you're down to negatives. So, really... if cost is factored in, then they're about the same. It all boils down to smog legality and reliability. SCC talks of an inefficient water pump on the SR20DET ceasing to work effectively at 6000rpm. Known weak points of the KA24DE are... well, there really aren't any. Go NA KA and be different... and legal!

[nissanguy_24]

GRiDRaceTech

Although i agree with most of what you said. The real problem with a NA KA, is power. KAs power is going to be limited by its limited RPM. Although its not too bad in stock form, your not going to be able to get away with 9000+ RPM NA engines which is how most NA engines make there power, lots of revs..

That said, a 200 whp or under NA KA is very possible, very legal and perfectly fine for drifting.

but if the boy wants alot more power they will need to look turbo. or spend serious cash trying to force the KA to rev high.

anyways, like i said earlier, im no expert, just know what i have read. if i've made a mistake inform me.


and just to say, i see no problem drifting with a Stock KA, you dont need alot of power to drift.

[R32GTST]

Someone asked if anyone has done 400bhp on stock internal SR.

Well, I've done it before. The setup was pretty simple. I've owned a S14 Sylvia that came with SR20DET (NVCS).

- The compression was lowered with the use of 1.2mm metal gasket.
- Injectors were SARD item measured 700cc each.
- The turbo was a customized Garrett Hybrid with TiAL 52mm wastegate.
- Intercooler was another Blitz item, GTR spec.
- Cams were from Tomei 264degree intake and exhaust
- Cams pulley were also from Tomei.
- Bosch fuel pump (can't remember the model but it was from a Merc).
- 3.5Inch downpipe & exhaust (no-cat but 2 box to keep the noise down)
- Nismo Waterpump and Oil Pump
- Nismo FPR
- APEXi Power FC with FC Logit.
- Blitz dual SBC boost controller.
- Customized oil cooler for engine, diff and rear diff.
- No NOS!!

Final output was 292kW at the rear wheels (before i broke the driveshaft). Boost was set at 1.4 bar max. Everyday driving boost was set at 1.2 bar, churning 260kW.

This setup was made on July 2003 and I've been driving the car on a daily basis. No problem whatsoever. It's all in the setup and tuning. I can honestly tell u guys that 50% of the time, I'm on 1.4 bar of boost. hehehe.. just couldn't help it!

I've since sold the car to a friend and currently, I own an R32 GTS-T with RB20DET stock standard. He's still running the same setup and he's loving it! why? because he can kick my arse!! oh well, back to the old drawing board. my plan is to implant an RB26DETT into this R32, and tune it to 500ps!! hahahahahaha

I've owned and driven the KA24DE in US before. Yes, it is a very good engine and very torquey. By no means SR is better than KA or vice versa. It's just that SR is made to pump out power via means of turbocharging. KA have higher compression that SR. KA was put into the 240SX because americans loves TORQUE. simple as that.

I've seen someone in Michigan turbocharged the KA motor and achieved 450bhp on stock internal but lowered compression. I don't know how long the motor lasted but he spent quite a lot of $$ to customized a lot of stuff!

The advantage of SR is lots of aftermarket goodies. I don't know about the development of KA motor in US coz I've been out of US since 2000.

U guys should be living in Southern Hemisphere to really get to know the SR engine. Don't believe all those things said in SCC or IT or TURBO. I'm glad to be living in Malaysia, where the weather is nice and the cars are F*&#ing unbelievable.

go read High Performance Import (HPI) or FastFours or Hot4s. HPI also have made something quite similar to my setup and achieve 288.9kW at the rear wheel.

Again, I'm just saying what I've done because someone ask if anybody did 400bhp on a stock internal SR20DET. well, are u satisfied with my answer?

- R32GTST -

[Weapon X]

*standing ovation* I can honestly say this is the best, most informative, not full of non-sensical *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* thread that I have ever followed on drifting.com . If more threads like this start popping up on the top 15, then there's a miniscule possibility that my faith in this forum will be restored. Thanks for everything, and I'm not just saying that 'cause I own a 240sx.

And btw, R32GTST. That was one hell of a first post.

[crusTE72corolla]

Whats up all. Lots of good info here. One of the best posts i've seen on here in a while. No immature bickering or anything! Just good hard facts (most of em at least).

I am an aspiring automotive machinist and engine builder in Houston TX. I am also involved with a company called Smoveperformance.com.

Anyway I just built a KA24DET for my buisness partners S14. We had made him a custom turbo system a while back but never got aroound to upgrading the fuel system any further than a rising rate pressure regulator. Well, after lots of hard driving and lean fuel ratios (and some pretty entertaining pyrotechnics along the way) the stock pistons and rings gave it up. A dry compression test showed 170psi on #1 & #4 and 60psi on #2 & #3. NOT GOOD!

I was expecting carnage when i opened this thing up, but was surprised to find that the bearings all looked perfect. All of the rods and the crank (both forged BTW) and even the #1 & #4 pistons were still perfect too! The #2 & #3 pistons on the other hand were DESTROYED. The ring grooves had collapsed and viced the rings which eventually led to the ring lands cracking off. Needless to say, this baby was burning plenty of oil!

Anyway, I went through the entire bottom end and rebuilt everything. We replaced the rods with Pauter x-beams and used .020 over Wiesco pistons with a 9.0:1 comp. ratio and better ring land/groove design with moly rings. Along with this we did a stand alone ECU and upgraded the rest of the fuel system.

My point is that the KA- DE is a very durable engine even in stock form and even with quite a few miles on it. The only thing about the internals that i would change would be the pistons, and if your gonna go with BIG boost later billet rods are good insurance. Other than that leave well enough alone.

And yes the head (the whole induction system for that matter) is a whole nother topic. One i would love to see discussed by some of the peopole on this thread!

I wont say a thing about the SR-DET because i have not had the privledge to finger bang one of those yet, but i hear that the architecture of the bottom end is very similar to the KA-DE.

Some one start a new thread about the KA-DE head and things to do with it, both N/A and Forced Induction.

Later

[R32GTST]

Ok,

here's my opinion on these things.

First of all, as GRidRaceTech mentioned, the SR20DET pumps out at least 200ps to 260ps. To be exact, SR20DET red top from S13 Q's and K's produce about 200ps. Export model 200sx, UK Version, usually rated at 197ps. SR20DET Black top from S13 and RPS13 produces slightly better power at 220ps. The S14/ SR20DET comes with NVCS (Nissan Variable Cam System) rated at 240ps while the S15 SR20DET comes in at 260ps, better turbo and intercooler.

Now, all that are crank HP not wheel HP. So, for 400cc less than the KA, you're already at 200ps. That's without even begin to touch anything just yet. Put on better air filter, dump pipe and 3 inch exhaust, should release at least another 8% to 10% bhp.

So, what's the KA24DE rated ps anyway at stock standard form? What I know is, going the NA way to develop power can be rather expensive if compared to turbocharged engines.

To give you another comparison, this was while I'm in the US. I've owned an 1990 EF Civic and modify it with B18C5 Type-R engine. The engine has been fully done up and produces 208hp at the wheels, which comes about 240hp at the crank. In total, I've spent more than USD10k.

On the other hand, my friend owns an RPS13 OneVia and install SR20DET into it. All in, with 3 inch exhaust, dump pipe and intake, he's pumping 205hp at the wheel... about the same as my civic... only that he spent USD5K!! half of what I've spent!!

Power-to-weight, I would win but give him at least 1/2mile, he'll win because he's power is more linear and he had more torque. We would then make the OneVia lighter with aluminum bonnets and some other weight-reduction measures (no A/C, billet pulleys, lighter but wider wheels, no back seat, no spare tire..etc) and soon, he's acceleration was better than mine.

At this point, I've done everything that could be done with the b18C5 except turbocharging or supercharging it. I've reliased that while NA is good and legal and all that, turbocharging is the better way to achieve higher HP and higher torque without increasing the capacity.

So, the moral of the story is, you'd spend USD5K to build a KA24DE engine to 200bhp while you'd also spend about USD5K to install an SR20DET which already produces 200bhp stock standard. Hmm... is there something missing? Pump in another USD5K into the SR20DET and you'll be seeing 300+bhp.

Both are good engines and I'm sure everyone has their reasons for choosing NA or ForceFed engines but it's 2 totally different world. One is legal to do and the other could be illegal in some states. Again, it's a matter of what you want out of your car.

In DRIFTING, back to the topic, I'd prefer the SR than the KA simply because of the stronger mid-range that can be achieved with the right setup. Also, the SR will allow you to rev higher, which allows you to have a broader torque range.

It's not rocket science to figure out how to increase torque and hp on the SR. Just match the turbo with the right injectors, intercooler, intake and pipes, and some careful tuning, you should be able to produce 350bhp, no problem. BTW, the stock SR20DET turbo can be boosted to 1.0bar max, allowing about 280ps, except the S15 turbo which can be boosted to 1.2bar, about 340ps.

CAL emission law sucks! that's why I left LA and move to Michigan. hehehe

But still, I'm glad to be home in Malaysia! The car prices might be ridiculous to some but i reckon no other countries in the world that have the variety of vehicle as we have here!!

Just my $0.02.

hehehe...

-R32GTST-

p/s: sorry if I'm speaking in terms of PS and BAR. btw, 1.0bar is 13.3 psi and 1ps is 0.97hp.

[hachiroku-fc3s]

1 bar is 14.7 psi right? Greddy and XS engineering both make turbo kits for the KA24de. The greddy kit has a to4 turbo and a fuel pressure regulator and intercooler making 220 hp at 6.3 psi. The XS kit however is making 206 hp at 6.2 psi without an intercooler but better fuel management and a t06 or td06 turbo. My point is that the stock bottom end is able to withstain the 225 hp that we were talking about earlier and that the fuel system can too as the more powerful kit relies on stock injectors and pump. And if you know about turbo kits you know that they dont generate near the capable hp. Simple mods and you could send it into the mid 300s. Corolla, the stock forged rods in the KA are good for 400+hp and the rest of the bottom end was built for boost. The pistons are the main fault in the bottom end. R32, with a $5000 budget I could probably put a KA into the high 300s to mid 400s. And the KA has the flatter torque curve. Torque is what you need to break those wheels loose. Nor do higher revs give you a broader torque curve. The SRs torque curve dips at the end and would continue to do so at even higher revs.

You make malaysia sound cool and you have an r32 so thats cool. Oh, and using bar and ps is not prob for me at least.

[hachiroku-fc3s]

Oh, there is another option if you want a legal SR20. Get an sr20de-t (not to be confused with the sr20det). Turbo a 200sx SE-r, sentra se-r, G20, nx2000, or newer sentra se engine. JWT (jim wolf technology for those of you not familiar with them) makes a turbo kit for the sr20de that came in the above cars. It costs $3500 and only bumps power up to 177hp at 6.5 psi but it utilizes a hybrid t3/t28 turbo cabable of quite a bit more. And the kit is CARB certified. In fact, you could actually put this kit on your SR20det and have a carb certified illegal engine. But it would be impossible to get caught. There are some other differences between the two engines but nothing that cant be swapped out.

Ok, back to arguing against the engine I just advertised. The closed deck design is not only bad for difficulty of disassembly. In fact the whole block, oil pan, oil pump and pickup have to be removed to get to the head bolts. Another problem with this is that you cant keep the bore from becoming distorted. Well you can, but none of you ever will. Piston to wall clearances are a factor in balancing and blueprinting, things that should be done with any moderate performance engine. The stock clearance is .0014 inch. After bolting up the cylinder head,transmission bellhousing, and main caps, that number can change by .0011 due to stress. That may not sound like a lot but that is almost as much as the stock clearance. This can affect your power and life. Ok lets talk more about that head, I already mentioned the rocker arm stoppers. The SR was an economy engine. One that was cheaper to build, Nissan has done this a million times. And the SR was the product. Not only is the stopper necessary but the rocker arm is stamped aluminum and have been known to fly off of their seats at high revs. What else was I going to mention? Hmm...Im sure Ill think of it later. That is probably enought to think about for now anyway.

[SR_power19]

hey, if you were to turbo a KA24de you might as well build your own kit and save some money.The greddy kit is $3,600(without intercooler?) and the XS kit is $4,200.So lets take a look at what we have here:

S14 w/KA24DE making 227rwhp@6psi on XS kit for $4,200

Now, i can get a SR for $2,000(red top) here in NY and install it myself and some friends.So about $300 more dollars for misc parts and some food to keep the friends happy while they work So for $2,500 i have 190rwhp on the SR@7psi.So i have $1,900 for upgrades.I can get a new exhaust system($400), FMIC($600),S15 turbo($300-$400) and boost controller($-200) for that.That would put me WAY over 227rwhp, and still may have money leftover.

Anyway, like some others have said this is a great thread, really makes me respect my KA more now, even tho its going out when i get the chance lol.

EDIT:Haha anyone else see that "sr@7psi.So" is an email adress? Pretty weird...