Until what point is the stiffer the better ?

[SpeedWise]

sorry if this might sound stupid, i don't know that much about the setups used suspension wise for drifters, but I keep hearing the stiffer the better, and i'm in the process of building a competition only car, my thoughts were that is stiffer is always better why would none of the pro drift cars run on basically no suspension ??? like metal to frame ? Is it a legal issue as far as Comp rules or is it because most of these cars run on street as well or is it just for comfortability ?
again sorry if this question is nonsense...

the main reason i'm asking is because im taking my automotive technician course right now and this would be the perfect opportunitie to do my suspension work since all the tools and lifts are available whenever I need them... and another quick question, would doing such a thing as removing suspention and replaciing it with a custom body to frame setup be dangeourous to cause injuries ?

[teamINERTIA]

Suspension to frame ( i.e. no springs or shocks) equals a big big no no, Its very dangerous and will cause your car to handle like crap. When people say the stiffer the better it's usually because they don't know much about suspension tuning. When your tuning your suspension if you go to soft your car will have body roll, feel soggy, and present problems drifting. If you go to hard your ride will be shot, you'll be a little slower in the corners ( due to the car pushing or wanting to slide out depending on your exact setup.).

Suspension is on your car for two reaons 1. to hold the car off of the ground 2. to allow the suspension to soak up any bad road conditions ( i.e. expansion joints, speed bumps, etc.) if you were to set your car up suspension 2 frame it would present a dangerous situation if say you were drifting and mid drift hit an expansion joint in the road or a dip or any other road hazard.

Stiff suspension is good but at some point there becomes a need to go softer to get faster, any true racer will tell you the same thing i just said. when you setup your suspension you are gonna have to spend alot of time tuning it for YOU. Like me for instance i've had my Fc setup as stiff as possible before and found that my lap times were 2-3 seconds slower then when i set my car up a little looser, I myself prefer a car thats a little more loose in the rear due to my preference of pushing harder when the rear gets a little loose over my fear of hauling *Censored**Censored**Censored* and having the car puch hard through a corner.

When you setup your suspension figure out how much your car weighs , what your intentions for the car are , and whether or not you want it to be a little loose or if you like a little push. Then decide what spring rate would be the best option to start out with, If your using coilovers i suggest you corner weight the car by setting it on 4 corner scales and adjusting the height of each corner until all 4 scales read the same weight, also try to factor in a little more height on the drivers side of the car so when your in it the suspension geometry is even all the way around the car. Then set your dampening and rebound right in the middle or a little higher ( if your using a 15 way adjustable i recommend starting around 7 - 9) . Then take a few laps see how it acts and then slowly start tuning your dampening and rebound until YOU run the best lap possible.

Remember to only do small changes and only one or two at a time, write down your results and at the end of each test see which one was better, and then you'll have a good base to start setting up your next suspension mods, like adjustable sway bars , tire pressure ( alot of variables) sway bar end links , camber/toe , roll center adjustments, Custom bumpsteer setting and such.

I hope this helps and if you need to know more just hit me up,
Matt

[SpeedWise]

Thank you Matt very appreciated...

[UNITEDMASTER]

Hello are we talking syrictly drift,or strictly grip, or a street car,I would agree with the previous post as far as needing to go softer to go faster in terms of lap times,but overall lap time is of no concern in a pure drift setting.I have been weighing the pros and cons of such a set up as in little to no shock dampening in the rear.I think it all comes down to driver preference thos is just IMO ,if you eliminate all body roll and suspension movement then you put it all on the tire then it becomes a matter of exceeding the traction limits of the given tire,true your ride quality will go down but if its a track car who cares ,try it at least.The only other problem I see is that the unibody would have to be reinforced quite a bit if you want any life out of the car,and the associated feb work needed to put a solid member in place of the shock.I am playing with the idea on a MK3T.Just my .02 no flames please THANKS

[teamINERTIA]

No flames united master, But even in a drift setup Suspension is very very EXTREMELY important, Think now if a solid suspension was that great wouldn't the pro drivers use it? I mean seriously Billions of dollars have been invested into suspension development for racing whether it be drift,drag,road,circletrack or what so have you. So your saying that those company's that spent said money into develop race winning suspensions for there cars should have just used a solid mount to win?

Like i said before solid mount suspension is not only a very unsmart move ( #1 its uncomfortable to drive #2 it removes the biggest tuning tool/source for your car #3 illegal by most sanctioning bodies)
But it is also very very dangerous do to the likeliness of losing control of the car due to the cars inability to soak up road hazards, the danger comes because of the fact that since there is no dampening or rebound being controlled if you were to be driving and hit a road joint or any similiar object (i.e track runoff, joint in the track ,debris) your car would want to jump off of the track/road instead of the suspension soaking it up....

I'm not saying that it can't be done i'm just saying that it is NOT the way to get your car to handle better. If you do, do it you will find your times, ability to drift smoothly and more will decrease. you HAVE to have the ability to tune the suspension to get your car to react the way you want it to, And in NO way is a solid suspension a good idea.

Matt

[JunpoweR]

No Shocks?
No Springs??

Try it out
and you will notice your car start to fall apart!!LOL

Diffrent spring/shock rates will be for diffrent tracks and road conditions..

On smooth tracks i would go with a stiff set up opposed to a track with bumps and elevation changes I would go a little softer to absorb them bumps and help keep the car on track..

[UNITEDMASTER]

Hello INERTIA I agree with all that you said,Im just kicking it around as a what if type thing.True the car will fall apart thats why I said reinforcing the shell would be needed.Again driver preference is the deciding factor ,but I think it would be interesting to see and hear some data from such a set up,call me crazy its just me LOL LOL.As far as all the negatives you mentioned thats just part of the pros and cons to doing something like this .Everyone must make there own decisions,but its good to hear both sides .

[teamINERTIA]

just a question, When is the safety of yourself and others on the track driver preference? And any driver that WOULD WANT a solid mount suspension in the first place should learn more about suspension and tuning before custom fabbing a solid mount setup just to find out they don't like it , can't control it, or wish they could send their car to a junk yard.

You'd be suprised what a PROPERLY tuned and set-up suspension can do. By set-up i mean corner weighted , proper height,spring rate, shocks, dampening and rebound, bumpsteer, roll centers, toe in/out, +/- camber, right air pressure in the tires, proper sidewall height on the tire, proper width tires.

It sounds like a lot to handle in the begining but it will allow you to do great thing with ANY car if you understand even just the basics.

This is the problem in the import car scene in general everyone says " yeah i'm a tuner and a racer" but if you don't know the basics of tuning or if your not even willing to learn your neither.

EVERY LITTLE KID WITH A CAR IS A RACER, US ONLY A CHOSEN FEW HAVE ENOUGH HEART, DETERMINATION, AND WILL POWER TO BE DRIFTERS. US DRIFTERS MUST OVERCOME THE STUPIDITY CIRCULATING ON THE FORUMS AND UNITE TO PROGRESS.

if your on this board or any other board about drifting and your in this sport because you love it and want to be in it and are happy with going through hardships just to continue, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, this is aimed at all drifters in general not just anyone on this thread.

Lets all progress drifting to the highest place possible by the spreading of knowledge and the help of each other.

WE ARE the hippies of today lol

Matt
( sorry about the ranting at the end i just had to get that off my chest.

[loveFreeRobots]

No Shocks?
No Springs??

Try it out
and you will notice your car start to fall apart!!LOL

Diffrent spring/shock rates will be for diffrent tracks and road conditions..

On smooth tracks i would go with a stiff set up opposed to a track with bumps and elevation changes I would go a little softer to absorb them bumps and help keep the car on track..

oh man!!! my s13 is falling apart with suspension, so... no suspension would probably be the worst idea anyone has ever had... in the entire world jk but seriously it is, not to mention i big enough bump might give u internal bleeding.
i have a visuall in my mind of what a car with no suspenion might look like drifting .... or driving at all, and its not good. also i think it will put more stress on other components, ha ha jaring hits will cause u severe pain and damage to ur baby for sure.. also harder weight transfer and i think it will hop like crazy if ur drifting on anything but a roller rink.

[loveFreeRobots]

This is the problem in the import car scene in general everyone says " yeah i'm a tuner and a racer" but if you don't know the basics of tuning or if your not even willing to learn your neither.

EVERY LITTLE KID WITH A CAR IS A RACER, US ONLY A CHOSEN FEW HAVE ENOUGH HEART, DETERMINATION, AND WILL POWER TO BE DRIFTERS. US DRIFTERS MUST OVERCOME THE STUPIDITY CIRCULATING ON THE FORUMS AND UNITE TO PROGRESS.

if your on this board or any other board about drifting and your in this sport because you love it and want to be in it and are happy with going through hardships just to continue, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, this is aimed at all drifters in general not just anyone on this thread.

Lets all progress drifting to the highest place possible by the spreading of knowledge and the help of each other.

WE ARE the hippies of today lol

Matt
( sorry about the ranting at the end i just had to get that off my chest.[/QUOTE]


i agree with the ranter!! we have all asked questions that other people might see as stupid many times i know i have, and the fact is if ur asking questions u want to learn so.. yeah give answers not put downs thats how i see it.. lets be kind to our fellow man and rise against with positive answers to all suspension questions.. haha..robble robble robble.