FD or S13

[Ghost of Duluth]

As for loving an S-13. I love em. Think they are wonderfully easy cars to get ahold of, modify and just all around easy like Sarah Gardner in high school. (Ficticious names, other names have been changed to protect the innocent) but for Raging Panda's statement of them being the same with suspension and 400 hp, don't agree one bit. If that were the case, I would drive a Pinto. Supercheap, RWD and according to him if I build it the same as a S-13, same suspension, power and whatnot, I can hang with an S-13. Not the case, or maybe a Gremlin or Pacer. That would be cool.

But you know the FD/S-13 is alot like the Ford/Chevy thing going on. People have their makes and they stick to them. I'm all for that. Trust me, if I sell my FD I am going to get an S-13. But i'll drive my Corolla til then. It's just different strokes for different folks. It's just not fair to compare the 2. The S-13 has it's own playground and so does the FD. Sometimes they overlap. Anyone can build anything.

[nissanguy_24]

The comparison is rather silly. A FC and a S13 would be a much better comparison. Of course that will have to wait for another day.

[Ghost of Duluth]

There you go. That's more real world. Now that would be a great comparison. I'd have to pick the Pacer though.

[nissanguy_24]

lol pacer.

Well to me if you really want to compare two vehichles they need to have a similar level of obtainability. Or else whats the point? i mean i could compare a Geo to a Mcclaren F1 but the fact is, no body is in the market for "one or the other"

However a rich muther*Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*er maybe in the market for a mcclaren or a enzo ferrari.

i am going to shut up now, me and you have waisted too much bandwidth here, lol.

[Ghost of Duluth]

I don't know man. Thoses Geos are super rare, even more so than the F1.

[raging panda]

I dont quite understand what you are saying, are you saying an equally modded FD wont keep up with an S13, or vice versa? I dont get it. I was only talking about the FD and S13 specifically, so what is the confusion, and where did the pinto come in? LOL. Comparing the FD and S13 is fair IMO performace wise, not price wise though. I don't think the FD has an advantage that the S13 cant overcome with money, and I dont think the S13 has any real advantage over the FD in any respect. It comes down to my earlier posts again, with equal horsepower and equally modified suspension, these two cars will perform. They will perform differently, but I dont think either will outperform the other drastically, so it would come down to driver skill and preference.

[P1STON2ROTARY]

The fd is no fair opponent for the s13 by design....the suspension geometry the 50/50 wieght distrubition IMO alot of the car is superior by design. Your comparing this genuine sports car with this coupe? i dont undertstand this thread. I like all cars (im aware of how biased I sound towards the rx7), but these were designed with different intents in mind..

[raging panda]

I will agree with the weight distribution, but it isnt off by much, and its not really a heavy car. I totally disagree on the suspension geometry setup. Like I said earlier, it shares the suspension setups with the likes of the Fairlady and Skylines, it doesnt really get too much better in that respect. It is superior in design because it is a flagship car, the s13 was designed as the 3rd down on the food chain. I dont think that there is anything that the FD has on the S13 that gives it an advantage once both are modified beyond their stock suspension and engines. Assuming the S13 came with the SR20DET, 400+ hp is not unobtainable by any standards, same with the FD. Also, if both had fully modified suspension, using stock mounting points (so only bolt ons and maybe a roll cage) like coilovers, heim jointed control arms, replace soft bushings with hard rubber or urethane, I dont see the FD walking away with a clear advantage. The only thing I see harder to do is make the 400+hp on the S13 because it starts off at 200, but that is easily taken care of with a little money.

[Ghost of Duluth]

Well if that is what you believe then who are we to argue. I don't believe that. As I said before, the cars were set up with entirely different purposes. With that being said, when they are both modified with 400hp and full coilover suspensions and whatever else, they will perform differently. No matter what you bolt on to a car, you sitll have to take into account, wheelbase, width, overall length, driver position, a whole lot of things other than power and suspension. That is why different RWD cars are grouped into diff classes in racing.

Let's look 93 RX7 / 89 240sx
Overall length: 168.5 / Overall length: 177.2
Overall witdh: 68.9 / Overall width: 68.1
Overall height: 48.4 / Overal height: 51.0
Wheelbase: 95.5 / Wheelbase: 99.4
Curb weight: 2826 lbs / Curb weight: 2862 lbs

Now I took one of the lower weights on the 240 that could be found. That's also a 5 speed manual car and an SE.

So you are looking at cars that are pretty different in all respects except weight. the FD is 9 inches shorter, almost an inch wider, has a 4 inch shorter wheelbase and is 3 inches shorter. It also has less weight above the body line. So if you set them up the same, numbers cannot lie. The FD is set up like a race care body wise. Short, wide body with a small viewing area above the body line, seating is inboard and very close. All these add to other factors in almost being able to pull right at 1.0g on the skidpad stock. The 240 pulled anywhere from a .082 to a .089. Yes this is different suspension and whatnot stock but build them up and the advantage is still there in terms of body types.

The 240 hatch body is not race inspired. It is longer, a wee bit wider, has more weight above the body line and has a longer wheelbase. Also a tad bit heavier. The coupe is a little different having less weight above the body line.

All of this can be made up with money, sure. But stick the same amount of money in both and the FD will still have the advantage over the 240. You can only make up so much and then dynamics take over. With the same driver in both cars, sure the advantage will be present, but same skill drivers are hard to come by. Different drivers in them and the advantage can sway either way.
But equipment can make up for talent to a degree.

[TP | sil-beer]

raging panda = pony

[nissanguy_24]

Yes but for the cost of a FD right now you can make a very competitive S13.

The whole modify the same amount of money for each car thing is as rediculous as this comparison. Thats like saying 6000 dollars into both a saleen mustang and a mcclaren f1....


Would that competitive s13 beable to beat a FD? this is a stupid question. Depends on what or how it was modified. Is it possible to beat a FD out performance wise with a S13 assumming you had the same amount of money that was near the purchase price of the FD. Yes it is. Woudlnt be as easy as slapping on bolt ons, but its possible. Just about anything is possible as you all know.


I think we have covered this topic pretty well. I also think piston2rotary may be underestimating 'that coupe' fact is the S13 has a great weight distribution and giant killing potential. But it wasnt sold as a pure sports car like the seven was.

Seven is a no holds bared Sports car. The S13 isnt. Thats why they sold so many more s13s then FDs. That said the S13 has some impressive pedegries.

I guess my arguement is this: for the cost of an FD you could make a hell of a S13, would it be able to beat an FD? probably not if i built and tuned the S13, not enough experience but im certain its possible.

of course when i say "beat" mean generally out perform. have one driver sit on both cars and go, wow that s13 was a superior car.

I really dont think anyone dissagrees with this, if so please say so. Ghost has basicly said the same thing. I know hes very proud of his FD, i dont blame him. awesome cars.

I feel like im reiterating my self alot on this thread so im going to stop posting here unless i have something new to post!

[Ghost of Duluth]

Great point Nissan guy, thats where my Pinto post came in.

[raging panda]

Cool posts, im glad that this wasn't a *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* ricer argument. You make a very good argument ghost/nissanguy. I see your points and they are very valid, but I don't quite see how differences that equal less than 2 feet in dimensions will make a large difference. The longer wheel base I can get. I also say that you are right about the seating positions compared between the two. The FD seems (i say that because ive never been in one) to be much more race inspired than the S13. The skidpad thing kinda irks me because what kind of tires did the FD come with? That could make a difference as the S13 came with 195/65/15s on my car. Definately not the kind of tire racing dreams are made of. Figuring the FD came with a little larger tire and a lower stance stock, that could make I'd guess a .5g difference over the S13. I'm not saying that you're not right, just that its not a fair comparison if the FD had much better tires. How do you mean by the cars dynamics? I am interested what you think the S13 has in shortcomings compared the the FD other than what has been stated.

I'm really not trying to pick a fight, just pick your brains as you seem very good at understanding cars like the FD and S13 and I would like to learn as much as possible (ghost/nissanguy). This is fun for me actually, I like discussions. You make very good points and it makes me think harder of what I know and what to say for a rebuttle. Very cool guys.

<-----Whats = pony mean? I dont get it.

[Ghost of Duluth]

I don't think it's picking a fight, I think it's a great discussion. You stated alot in your post about why they are not comparable right out of the box. This comparison from the get go unfair. While the 240 is a wonderful and capable car, it is not on the level with the FD. With what it takes to put it on that leve, you could buy an FD and not have the down time associated with engine swapping, parts installation and headaches that go with modifying a vehicle. Now I am sure that someone would want to modify an FD, don't get me wrong. But with that you start out bone stock and can go up from there, with the 240 you have already modified it pretty heavily to get where you are. So modifying it any more further drives down the reliability and ease of upkeep on it.

Let's look at the 400 hp theory. With a 240, to make 400 HP, you are going to need an engine swap, fuel upgrades, computer, turbo upgrade (large) a myriad of electronic goodies and add ons for monitoring and what-not. Now with the FD you can pretty easily and for alot less money (in upgrades), make 400 HP. Can do this with just a couple upgrades. My car isn't all that heavily modified and I make 380 and could go higher on the boost no problem. Upping my boost could put me over 400.

So the money thing would be about the same to get a 240 to 400 and an FD to 400. That is the prices of the cars plus parts. So you really arent coming out ahead getting a 240 over an FD if you are going to spend that kind of money. If you arent then getting a 240 is the way to go. Cheap to buy and cheap to get to a decent level of performance. Once you step over the 300 HP line though it become really expensive. Thats where they start to come together price wise.

As for shortcomings, the 240 doesn't really have too many shortcomings. It's a great car. I never said any differently. It's just that it was built for an entirely different type of driving then the FD was. Therefore the geometry is different, the way it makes power is different, pretty much everythingis different except for the fact that it has 4 wheels and 4 shocks. The suspension components are alot different. Just look at the strut and spring set ups. Also look at the way the body is set up. The chassis sits lower on the FD with the fenders rising above the hood line. Also look at the way the body goes wide at the front wheels and then gets thin at the middle, then back wide at the rear wheels. The first thing makes for a lower center of gravity and the second puts the occupancy weight more centered towards the middle of the car. The 240 does not have these. Other goofy little things such as the air channels in the roof for better stability at high speeds. All of those ad up to advantages that the 240 cannot make up. That is what I mean by dynamics. Maybe design would have been a better word.

[ProjectD]

Id go with FD,

but remember the huge price gap between an S13 and an FD. huge. like 2K for S13, 13K or so for FD.