5.0 vs 2nd gen F-Body

[mranlet]

And I thought imports were confusing...

-MR

[chrisfromda909]

not a 2nd gen (or is it?) but...

excuse me while i clean up my mess...
just imagine this as a drifter instead of drag...

[CrazyHawaiian]

Thats a 3rd gen. If the GFX are stock, then its a 91-92 RS model. Here is a pic of REVLIMIT's ex drift camaro, which was originally a 91 RS:



His new version (different chassis shell) is going to be a different color with some other stuff done (and 400hp!!). I think REVLIMIT has done a really good job on the appearance mods on his drift car. Nobody makes kits for our Camaros, so he makes his own kits from scratch. And I've seen three totally different versions now, really shows his creativity and style.

For me though, I think those stock 91-92 GFX look alright, so thats what I'm gonna run for now. Bought a 91-92 GFX set from REVLIMIT a while ago and they ended up on the black 89 RS. And recently got another 91-92 GFX set for pretty cheap (200) that will end up on the green 89 IROC. In the future I'm considering completely changing the front end of my track car to a dirt style setup (better in case I crash). Here's a pic of my 91 Z28 that came with those 91-92 GFX stock (that grill gonna end up on the track car).

[PearlBlueSoul]

I figure if you're basing your decision off of what you've got to work with stock, just remember either way you're gonna have to deal with replacing things eventually. Sure the mustang may start off worse but we've yet to see what they're truly capable of. However, unless the other guy at Drift Days who used to bring his (wrecked it) finishes rebuilding it, we'll see in around 3/4 months what a 5.0 is capable of on the drift field. just gimme a lil time! lol

[PearlBlueSoul]

Originally posted by CrazyHawaiian
I recently got my hands on a set of 3rd gen specific twin turbo manifolds, so hopefully I can get my turbo swap going pretty soon (the supercharger will end up on the drift car hehe).

uh oh....those didn't happen to come from a certain firebird did they? you evil, evil man. damn I envy you!!

[CrazyHawaiian]

I'm honestly not sure what type of F-Body they came off of. I bought them from this guy in Chicago. He had them on his mostly stock 350 with a set of generic T04E turbo's (61 trim) running 8psi and put down 475 rwhp. The manifolds are from the original Gale Banks TT kits made from 82-84. I'm planning to run them on a 377ci SBC (destroked 400ci) with a pair of the new HKS T04Z turbo's (undecided trim) at 15 psi (most the ECU can handle for now). I'm gunning for 650 rwhp with a 3,000 to 8,000 powerband. Madness!!

Sometimes I wish I gave my old SVO some more time before giving it up. That car was so much fun on the mountain. But its still in the family, and I still got permission to drift it, so maybe one day I'll get to play with that car again.

[Tsunami]

CH I am kinda worried about your 377TT. Don't get me wrong the thought of HKS turbines on an SBC gives me goosebumps, but I wonder why you're powerband is going so high (I'm thinkin Wangan machine here) with that much boost. You know your stuff so I'll assume you've got a forged crank, rods and pistons in there, and hopefully a stud girdle (I don't know if you have a 2 or 4 bolt main block). I don't know if you're using an LT1 or TPI SBC but I'd say with the TPI it'd be hard to get that much power with the stock heads. I know where you coming from, use the turbo's to make the power and not the motor, I'm just kinda concerned about the longevity of it and the I-hate-traffic powerband. Personally I'd do an LT1 383 with 6500 rpm redline and get the proper electronics so I could dial up the power on demand. But I know you know your stuff so I have a feeling your'e 3rd gen is gonna be in good hands.

p.s. You said the grille is going on your drifter, does that mean I get to see a big fmic on the front of that sweet 91?

Keep that SVO. They're rare Mustangs. That little 2.3 can make 1000hp with enough Esslinger parts. Not to mention you got a couple of guys here that really know that chassis.

[CrazyHawaiian]

Yeah I'm putting a lot of time and thought into it. I dont even have the motor yet, so it will be a while before this project is completed. If you wanna read all my ideas and stuff (and debates with people about it lol), check out this thread here. But yeah the car will have a FMIC pretty soon (hehe!), long before the motor gets done (gonna use the FMIC w/ my supercharger for now). I gotta stop thinking about this stuff man!! I'm really behind schedule with my drift car, so I need to give it some love! No turbo, no!! hahahha.

Yeah those SVO's are sweet. I did a bunch of mods to mine before I gave it up, 35# injectors, 'PE' ECM, ported E6 Manifolds, 3" downpipe, 3" exhaust, Volvo FMIC, Upgraded boost controller (Bosch Style), and was getting ready to make my own t3/t4 wannabe hybrid (mix match parts from the stock SVO T3 and a stock Buick T-type turbo) but it never happened. We never dyno'd, but I guesstimate just a little under 300rwhp @ 22psi w/ the stock turbo.

The real cool thing to me is that the DIY tuning tools I bought to tune my GMC Syclone ECM I'm gonna be swapping into the 91Z will also work with the Ford stuff. So later on down the road when the car gets a real T3/T4 hybrid turbo I can re-tune for really cheap. But currently the car is down with a blown headgasket (booo!) Too much 22psi runs I guess hahahah. The car ended up in my moms boyfriends hands, so the deal is I help him build / tune it and I can drift it when its complete (woohoo!).

[Tsunami]

CH I got some ideas for the drifter and the SVO. First if you guys are having trouble with fuel starvation or cutting out in the drift you may want to look into Holley's truck avenger carb. It's designed not to cut out at extreme angles, so it may keep the fuel from sloshing during the choku's.
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...C/0-90670.html

If you're thinking about fuel injection Edelbrock makes a conversion kit that has a 4bbl throttle body, manifold, fuel rails ecu, harness, and all the supporting hardware. It can support over 450hp depending on the system. You guys could get all the benifits of fuel injection without having to rewire the whole car. The peak power would be down a bit but it'll make more torque over a broader range and flatten the powerband.

For that SVO Esslinger has a new replacement head for the 2.3L. It saves 25lbs and bolts right on. If ya got the money I'd say get one of these while ya got the heads off. I'd keep the stock head if it's any good, they're hard to find. From people I've talked to you should be able to make about 325-350hp at the wheel with 25lbs of boost and the stock internals. I dunno how much hp the stock bottom end can hold but they say they're pretty stout.

As far as the 91Z28 I'd say go with a 400 LT1. I'd say go with TT's and around 6500rpm redline for good torque. Get some good internals and electronics so you could run about 5-10 psi tooling around town and dial it up to about 20-25 to teach those pesky Supras a lesson. As far as the intercooler I'd use the FMIC if it'd give enough cooling to both the IC and radiator. That way you wouldn't have to cut holes in that gorgeous hood. But you could open up the top portion of the bumper to allow more airflow like on the WRC Subbie and Jun supra. I'm still not sure how much the L98 would do with it's heads, but I think you may be able to swap the Vortec heads from a truck on there and see some improvements. Here's a little something you could top the L98's off with. Holley's stealth ram intake.

[PearlBlueSoul]

Originally posted by Tsunami
Here's a little something you could top the L98's off with. Holley's stealth ram intake.

Remind me to ask you questions when time comes to build the valvetrain on the 5.0 I'm looking into. I've got ideas but would like to pick your brain sometime. You and Bosozoku.

[Tsunami]

Yeah just gimme a pm anytime. I love talkin to other car guys and see what's on their mind. Till then pick up a copy of Mustang Muscle and Fast Fords. There's a ton of info in there. Also if you're new to domestics HOT ROD magazine has tons of useful info in every issue. Good luck with your 5.0 man!!

[Tsunami]

CH I was thinkin last night and I figured it out. You could take the SBC out to 400ci and get a set of the Systemax2 heads that Revlimit is using. Assuming the efficiency stays the same these should be good for around 450hp on the 400. Then get a good boost controller and an afr controller so you could keep the boost around 5psi around town and crank it up to 20 when you need it. Now ATI has an intercooler for their centrifugals that mounts at an angle near the bottom of the radiator. Use a couple of those to intercool each turbo and then you don't have to cut holes in the front of the hood, and they'll grab air from under the car. Maybe put some vents beside the cowl to get some heat out. Throw on a 50hp cooling shot if you need to cool down the air. Then you should have a max of 640-690rwhp and 400rwhp when you're tooling around town. Just would have to have a stout bottom end and the suspension to put it to the ground.

[TireFrier]

5.0 ALL THE WAY

having owned 1 turd gen (third gen) camaro and 8 foxbody mustangs i would DEFINALY say go with the mustang.
the foxbody mustang will outperform the f body any day in any type of racing or performance or comfort or anything.
the only good motor that came in a third gen camaro was the L98 TPI 350, but you couldn't get one with a 5 speed. they only claimed 20 more hp than the ford's 5.0 HO displacing over 50 cubic inches less.
the camaro is HEAVIER.
the chevy 305 is a JOKE. it was designed to be an economy V8. not performance. they also have a SHITTY powerband.
the foxbody mustang is a MUCH more suitable platform. and all V8 foxbodys came with "track-loc" ford's version of LSD. its a clutch type. and they all had 8.8 rear ends (86+, but thats the years you'd want since thats when tuned port fuel injection was introduced to the 5.0). the chevy 10 bolt rear end is a joke as well.
as far as suspension goes the mustang kicks *Censored**Censored**Censored*. the aftermarket is HUGE. look into Maximum Motorsports or Steeda.
to start with you can do the normal suspension you would do on anything, springs and shocks and swaybars. you can get subframe connectors and rollcages for REAL cheap too. right now in the bay area there is a mustang with a 12 point cage going for 1000 bucks.
parts for the 302 are slightly more expensive then for a small block chevy, but the ford makes more power and is more reliable.
there are TONS of coil over kits and everything else you can think of for the mustangs. you can also take a 99+ cobra independent rear suspension and make it fit on the mustang.

the best platform would be
1988-1992 Mustang lx notchback(coupe)
the lx typically had less options meaning less weight.
the coupe versions were also a little bit stiffer, and lighter.
88 is the start of the "mass air" equipped cars. 86-87 had speed density. you can convert a speed density car to mass air for about 500 bucks or less(100 dollars from a junk yard) but 86 had flat top pistons and shitty heads. 1993 was the switch to hyperutectic pistons and those are garbage (as far as performance goes).
its best to buy a stock mustang than a modified one. most modified mustangs were raced, and heavily modified stangs were drag raced, alot. drag racing means slicks, slicks means *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*ed up torque boxes.
when it comes to camaro vs mustang, the camaros just can't keep up at all(that is untill the LS1, but then we got the 03 cobra and the camaro is now dead). now i am WAY more into drag racing than drifting, but i've seen some NICE road race setups for mustangs, stuff the camaros can't even compare to....

i LOVE all cars. i've owned everything, but honestly, you can't go wrong with a foxbody mustang. and the SVO.... thats a whole car of its own....


ALSO for a SUPER budget drifter....
1986+ Mustang LX 4 cyl - $500
1987 Thunderbird Turbocoupe motor (2.3 liter turbocharged intercooled, like SVO but more power) - $250
wiring and ECU - $100
84-86 SVO/tbird t3 - $200
t bird 8.8 5 lug disc brake rear - $150
5 lug front - $400 for cobra stuff (big brakes)
cobra R 17" wheels w/ tires - $500
eibach springs with koni adjustables (used) - $150-250
you're lookin at 250 hp (stock boost, with cat and stock muffler), 5050 weight dist, and without weight reduction 2800-2900 lbs depending on if its a coupe or hatch and power windows or not. the 2.3 motor is BULLETPROOF.

[CrazyHawaiian]

Cant wait to see more Stangs out there either. I actually think they'll drift fine stock, just with the right tire selections (that was a case with my old SVO, completely stock suspension). I know Dan (PearlBlueSoul) is getting a 5.0 project going, cant wait to see it drifting! Tsunami, whichever one you choose I think you'll be happy. Cant wait to see your car out there drifting too man!

As for the motor, I'm about 99% positive I'll be going with the World Products Motown Block (400ci SBC) and Motown 220 Aluminum heads, but instead of stroking it out to a 415 or 427 and running carb, I'm gonna destroke it to a 377 (or maybe a 352??) and boost the heck out of it using EFI. I've been debating the Stealthram vs Miniram for a while now. The Stealthram costs less than 1/2 of the Miniram, but RPM range is limited. Holley's Stealth Ram runner length is ideal at 4700 for peak tq and 5618rpm to 6282rpm for peak hp. The TPIS MiniRam intakes is ideal for peak tq at about 5200rpm and 7244rpm to 8101rpm for peak hp. This is info I got here which is a website run by a Thirdgen.Org board member (mrr23) showing tech data about some of the popular 23 degree head EFI intakes. So I think I might bite the bullet and go with the super expensive Miniram. It will just work better with my desired powerband. The stock ECM can only account for up to 14.5 psi of boost, so thats my limit for now. But I've been reading up on alot of the HKS piggyback units, and they might be able to help me out. Just not sure because nobody uses that stuff with the ECM I'm gonna use (GMC Syclone/Typhoon ECM). Thanks for the info though!!

[TireFrier]

right now i have a 1985 Mustang Gt. i'm buiding it for drag, but i might take it out and drift it.... right now its pretty much stock but with a 8.8 rear with 3.73s in it a short throw and flows. the carb is better too...
i mostly swing donuts and *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* in it and drag race.... but *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* it may turn into a drifter.... but its MUCH better as a drag car hehehehe. i'm thinking about picking up another ae86 or maybe a S12 or something. think along the lines of "cheap commuter that i can beat to s h i t" i was really impressed with the toyota's dependability and ruggedness and the nissan's power and smoother powerband. oh and another car you guys might want to look into.... BMW E30 325is good power, good balance, good handling, lsd, good suspension, good aftermarket..... they are fu cking ba dass!!!!!