Open Diff

[CrazyHawaiian]

Well if you guys were unable to drift with an open diff then too bad for you. You dont need LSD to drift. I wholeheartedly agree that its better for drifting, but this whole "its not drifting if you dont have LSD" is BS. When I first got into this sport I had an open diff. Yes I upgraded to LSD (or POSI in the domestic world) but I was still drifting before I got one. Yes I was able to drift better with LSD/POSI, make more smoke and gain more speed, but I was still drifting before I had one. This falls under the "just because you cant do it dosnt mean its impossible" rule. This is almost as bad as the "you need a SR20 to drift" crap when everyone knows the KA is good enough. We had some 240 guys over here in Hawaii with KA's, open diff, and minor suspension mods that could hit it up nice. Yes most of them upgraded and moved forward, but they were still drifting nice with the stock stuff. And now as the new guys come into the sport and learn with the open diffs in the skidpad we can see their skill level improving. They must not be affected by the "its not drifting if you dont have a LSD" rule.

[_PG_]

Eh brah, I learned on Open diff and stock suspension. I know how little incontributed to where i am now. I had to relearn how to drive my car.

I have seen plenty guys at HRP rip it in open diff. It was kinda cool like... oh he's got open diff but all i saw them doing was the turn at the end of the straightaway... Nothing to link there and its a decreasing radius so you slow down the whole time, the LSD doesn't benefit you as much there as it does on a more complex track, or a choku down the straight right before it. Remember when Komatsu came and ripped it? Or the Julius cars, or Kazama, etc... They could not do what they do in an open diff car, especially with stock suspension. Some of the best in the world we are talking about here.

BTW, what you doing up so early, its 6:30 back home!

[CrazyHawaiian]

Staying up late, just finished a video of Chris and me drifting (posted it in the vids section). Yeah I remember when all those guys came down, some sick drifting. I totally agree that drifters at the professional level need a good LSD to drift that good. Its definately better. But so many people learn with an open diff, I just dont know how anyone can say it wasnt drifting. I learned on an open diff just like you. Did you consider it drifting before you upgraded to a LSD? Thats the only thing I dont agree with here. Saying its not drifting if you dont have a LSD. Its not as good, but its still drifting. Cant take anything away from those guys that can rip it with open diff. I give them much respect.

[_PG_]

Ok, i think i may have been a little too harsh in an effort to stop sh.it talking by people i suspected to be sliding around a parking lot island with open diff and sayign that they are better at drifting than people with LSD cause they don't have one and they are still drifting. Sure, a lot of people consider that drifting. I think of it more as gymkhana or sliding practice, it doesnt have the constraints of a track or street or mountain drifting. Its like going to the skidpad and drifting in circles... i guess it could be called "drifting" by Road and Track Magazine right? But to US, drifting is not just merely sliding, its a whole process and mindset. A drifter isn't someone who only hits up Wal Mart and thinks he is good. Well not in my opinion at least.

[ohtagerbilhero]

Originally posted by _PG_
...But to US, drifting is not just merely sliding, its a whole process and mindset. A drifter isn't someone who only hits up Wal Mart and thinks he is good. Well not in my opinion at least.

i saw this old video about animation a long time ago... this guy who was animating The Thief & The Cobbler was talking about how he would hang with the old masters of animation... to them, an animator wasn't just someone who animated. anyone could animate...there's sweatshops in korea with five year olds who animate for The Simpsons... but they aren't ANIMATORS until they've mastered the craft or something.... or reached a certain level where they're able to bring life to a character on the screen.

so he talks about how he showed one of these old masters of animation the scene he did where the villain is wiggling his fingers (the guy had like a hundred fingers, each long as heck with more than three knuckles, if i remember correctly... it was a crazy character design)... so he shows this master of animation guy... and he's like...

"yep...yep...you're an animator."

this guy felt really good after that. and The Thief & The Cobbler is a great movie. (disney TOTALLY ripped it off when they made Aladdin)
---------------------------------------------------

since i was studying animation before i was studying drift, i thought about this a lot as i was learning to drift. when my friends would ask about my car and such, i'd tell them that i drifted. ...but i'd never tell them i was a drifter. i knew i wasn't good enough to call myself a drifter. i'm probably still not good enough...but i've drifted, and i drift. ...and i'm waiting for one of the old masters to watch me one day and say "yep...yep...you're a drifter."

this has nothing to do with the thread...i just felt like saying that. i like telling unrelated stories.

[Pennyman]

This thread has turned into one of the most inflamed and unwelcoming pieces of webspace on this website, and I really don't understand why. Yes it's harder to drift with an open diff. and yes it is called drifting if you have an open diff. The methods are just different, and the versatility is limited. Just like if you have a super low-horsepower car: It limits your ability to drift - to some extent, meaning the methods of initiating/sustaining a drift are different.

A huge thank you to CrazyHawaiian for sticking up for the "peg-leggers" because there are a lot of them, and I don't see why discouraging their efforts to learn car control and have some fun makes good use of this forum. Where's Nissanguy when you need him? He drifts with an open diff.

[nightracer]

Drifting is controlling the loss of traction at the rear tires while maintaing traction and steering with the front tires. That is possible with an open diff car so questioning the validity of open diff drifting is infallable.

I think the consensous here is that drifting without an LSD is difficult but possible. As a few people in this thread have posted, it takes skill there is no scientific law that says drifting or certain kinds of maneuvures are only possible with an LSD. Sure the more technical the drift gets, the more difficult it gets but there is still potential with an open diff.

My friends and I all started with open diffs and some of us still use them. The margin of error will be signifigantly larger on an LSD so many maneuvures may seem impossible with an open diff, some are, some are not. It goes back to tires, suspension, set-up and driver. There are times when my open diff rendeered my drifts ugly as sin and almost close calls.

There have been other times when I was able to enter a corner at speed, carry it, maintain an angle and enter another turn with control of traction loss at the rears. The car performed very much like it had an LSD. I will admit executing drifts like that are difficult but not impossible. I would rather have an LSD in my car for the record.

[ohtagerbilhero]

Originally posted by nightracer
Drifting is controlling the loss of traction at the rear tires while maintaing traction and steering with the front tires.

a drift is a four wheel slide. if your front wheels aren't sliding, you're in a tailslide, not a drift.

i'm not saying you're wrong about being able to drift with an open diff or anything... i'm just saying your definition of drift is wrong. if a drift was just a tailslide, drift competitions would be really boring. i like seeing front tire smoke.

[nightracer]

Edit: no you are wrong a four-wheel slide is a loss off control.

You maintain steering control with counter steering. Look at some cars while in a drift, the front wheels are always turning with the direction that car is going. For example, the front wheels will be turning on a normal path while the rear wheels will be slipping a little and rear end is out.

[Ghost of Duluth]

okay, i'm not going to say much more on this topic, because i'm slowly being reminded why i don't come visit this forum much...

Maybe you don't visit this site because you don't know what you are talking about. A Drift is NOT a 4 wheel slide. Do you even watch Drift events? A proper Drift is loss of traction on the rear tires, not ALL traction, but most of it. If you lost all traction on the rear, you would not be able to keep speed, you would just stop. Then you steer with the front wheels and with throttle inputs.

A 4 wheel slide is just what it says, a 4 wheel slide. In AWD config, yes you break traction on all 4 wheels. But you still counter steer with the front wheels.

Don't be mad at the site because you can't figure it out. You keep on 4 wheel sliding all over, nobody is going to have to worry about you beating them at contests with you doing that. Maybe just hitting them.

[nightracer]

Originally posted by Ghost of Duluth
...A Drift is NOT a 4 wheel slide. Do you even watch Drift events? A proper Drift is loss of traction on the rear tires, not ALL traction, but most of it. If you lost all traction on the rear, you would not be able to keep speed, you would just stop. Then you steer with the front wheels and with throttle inputs.

A 4 wheel slide is just what it says, a 4 wheel slide. In AWD config, yes you break traction on all 4 wheels. But you still counter steer with the front wheels...

Thank you.

[malcolm]

there are two types of drifting. there is show drifting, where the rear tires have a massive slip angle, and the fronts have little or no slip angle. then there is four-wheel-drifting, which is a technique used in circuit racing. All four tires are slipping at a VERY small angle. Four-wheel drifting is fast, but would not gain you hardly any points at a judged drifting event. A show drift is much slower, but seems more spectacular and will gain you many points in a judged drifting competition.

[_PG_]

Originally posted by nightracer
I think the consensous here is that drifting without an LSD is difficult but possible. As a few people in this thread have posted, it takes skill there is no scientific law that says drifting or certain kinds of maneuvures are only possible with an LSD. Sure the more technical the drift gets, the more difficult it gets but there is still potential with an open diff.

You see, here is where you are wrong: Like I said, if the open diff will always send 100% of the torque to the wheel with less resistance (aka the unloaded, trailing wheel) then is is IMPOSSIBLE TO GAIN SPEED THROUGH THE DRIFT WITHOUT GETTING GRIP TO THAT UNLOADED TIRE. To get grip to a tire that has very little friction, you need to replenisht eh friction, in this case, addind downward force from the weight of the car settling back onto that wheel after the car grips.

Lets review: If the open diff sends power to the inside wheel (unloaded), for the car to accelerate into, during and/or out of the DRIFT, the grip (or friction) of that inside tire must be GREATER THAN THAT of the outside tire.

Since that will never happen (even if it DID, the Open diff would send all the power to the newly unloaded tire thus negating your effort) it is SCIENTIFICALLY, PHYSICALLY, IMPOSSIBLE to achieve this one specific scenario and THEREFORE completely valid to say Physics won't allow the open diff to perform the same maneveurs as the LSD. Also such things as weight shifting/transitioning such as in a switchback or "S" are different between open and LSD diffs. Can you transition with open diff? Yes. Is it difficult and unpredicatable? Yes. Is it the same thing as the LSD transition/shift? Hell NO. The car with LSD will hold not only more speed throughout the transition, but a better line and angle.

This is of course assuming the same car and same driver. Its not fair to say that you know "some dude" who drifts REALLY well in open diff and puts to shame most people around with LSDs. Well, anyone of a higher skill level can obliterate beginners, LSD or not. Well guess what... I know just about every top finisher in Formula D and D1 and I would happily say all of them run mechanical LSDs. How's that drifter in the open diff now? Get my point? Refer back to the baseball analogy, please. It really is a cool analogy. And well written, too, if i do say so myself...

[CrazyHawaiian]

I know guys that bust the 4 wheel slide when they drift (I'm one of them! hehe!). I mean, you dont always do it, but when the time is right you do (it all depends on the turn and angle). If your car does not have as much steering angle as the other cars, sometimes you need to improvise to make your car reach the same angles while sliding. Sometimes this involves the front wheels sliding as well. You can tell who does this by looking at the wear on the front tires. I dont know if this happens at the professional level, but thats what I see at our practice sessions and some events. Might have a lot to do with our type of track. I would say keeping good contact with the front tires is the best setup. Thats why everyone wants more steering angle (including me! hehe). But the 4 wheel slide is not always a loss of control.

[Pennyman]

Blarg.

Open Diff Drift: It's posible, but can not be sustained as well, and is more difficult, which does not mean it's better.

LSD Drift: Sustainable sliding, better control, large initial investment, but the pros use LSD for a reason.