"heel-and-toe" & "double-clutch"

[Parry]

I don't know why but it is not easier at all for me to skip gears while I am downshifting.

I guess it's part of my routine to heel-toe through each one or something. Also, if you go through each gear you are always in gear and in the powerband if you need to get on it.

[malcolm]

unless you're rallying without pacenotes, and you're approaching a second gear corner when you're in running low rpms in fourth gear, I wouldn't skip gears.

1) when you skip gears, you aren't as precise, and there's a chance you could get it in the wrong gear.

2) there is a HIGH chance you could mechanincally over-rev your engine. Say you're in fourth gear, approaching a corner... If you slam it into second too early, you could force the engine to 10,000 rpm. No rev-limiter will save you, and it won't be like Gran Turismo. The engine will get wound to high rpms, and most likely wreck itself. The super-touring cars in the late 90's were actually built to be over-revved. They had a rev limit of 9500 rpm, but the tell-tale would often read 12000+. They built the engines that way so they could use engine braking even more. Porsche did the same thing with their GT3's.

3) it would take longer to get from one gear to another, because your blip would be much larger, and you would have to allow the rpms to drop a lot in one gear to be able to skip gears on your downshift so you don't over rev. Both of these factors will reduce the effectiveness of engine-braking.

Parry's idea also carries some weight as well.

Jason, be sure that you aren't getting the car massively sideways on your entry to the corner, because from your description, that what sounds like will happen if you still have to decelerate a lot after turn-in and before the apex... Try to blend each one, one into the other, and be as smooth as possible. Work with little steps, and always keep smoothness on your mind. If you try to hard, and you aren't smooth, you will be losing a lot of time. Did I mention work on being smooth?

[jasonaries]

Great thoughts, guys. Here's an update.

Parry - Re: ....better served to practice braking.

Ah, you raise a good point, Parry. But, per "Going Faster" (Skip Barber Racing School), I have elected to delay the refinement of my late braking until later. "Going Faster" suggests that the most speed gains come from perfecting the line and acceleration out of the corner. So, yes, I do need to spend some time on late braking, but I'm waiting for a bit.

D1Skyline - thanks for reading and for adding your question to the mix.

SidewaysGTS - re: driver preference. Ah, true... as I get more and more into this, I hope to explore more of the driver preference issues.

14yearolddrifter - hmph.... for 14 and having driven a standard once, you made an unusually good post. As you'll see, I'm examining your point of view.....

malcom: uh-oh, I'm busted.... I'm not getting sideways at all. *blush* *sob* As I've continued to squeak out extra practice time whenever I can, my most recent experiences do suggest that there is a lot less mental effort in not skipping gears. I found that with the particular tranny in the SR-5, that I can "standardize" my throttle blip by going from 5-N-3-N-2, skipping only 4th. 4th and 5th are so similar, that it's no big deal. I elected to include 3rd gear on the way down. I don't know why, it just happened, and I'm thinking less and driving more. I suspect I'll keep the jump from 5 to 3, and not shift into 1st, ever. I haven't downshifted into 1st in 8 years, so I can't see me starting now.

What I'm thrilled about: I adapted my everyday driving preference for balancing engine braking and regular braking through the deceleration phase to keep things smooth. (See other thread for my funky habit.)

What I'm sick over: I am so impatient about transferring my skills to the GTS that it makes me crazy. I have nowhere near the control in the GTS. I get frustrated and wonder whether I'll ever be one tenth the GTS driver that I am in the SR5. How do you guys keep from going nuts when you're trying to build your skills in a different car!?!?!?!

[malcolm]

Don't worry dude, it just takes time and practice. Go out to lapping days, and and just work on being smooth with your GTS. With smoothness, speed will come.

Also, another point on skipping gears, if you're in fifth gear as a necessity (ie. when you're on the track, and past redline in fourth), you shouldn't be able to downshift to third, unless you brake a lot before you shift, so you might as well downshift into fourth, and use the added engine braking for a little bit before you get below what would be redline in third. If you're in fifth gear for comfort (ie. on the highway, going 60 mph, when you could be in third anyway), then a skipped downshift (5th to 3rd) could be beneficial if you needed to stop quickly. However, the road is really the only place where using it would be a good thing to do.

[jasonaries]

*sigh* ah...my newbie-ness is evident

Malcolm: Hey, thanks for the vote of confidence. I appreciate your optimistic "Jason is doing well unless otherwise specified" attitude. However, I'm still new at this and am not hitting redline. *blush* Yeah, I get close sometimes, but not often. I know it's hard for you to remember all of us and where we are in our training. So, no shame in not seeing in one of my earlier posts that I'm investigating and gaining experience with how the cars handle in the higher rev bands. So, as you can see, I have my hands full.

The good news is that, yes, I totally agree that with smoothness comes speed. The plan is to switch back to the GTS in the Spring and concentrate on driving only it. (It's back in the shop for a new differential & clutch and will remain in Buffalo in storage until Spring.) There's no chance my pals will get to it by winter. So, for now, I'll still keep working on my smoothness with the advanced techniques in my SR-5. I have about 9 weeks left before the salt hits the road.

I dunno, though. Ya know, some days I think you folks have a telepathic mind control beam focused on me: I thought of this board when I didn't skip 4th the other day.

[ReD-CeL]

im no pro or anything... but.

Originally posted by Parry
I posted this in some irrelevent topic in New to drifting, but here.



here's some video:

http://flipty.com/leadpipe/gtipics/feet.avi

Right click, save as.

first off, if this video is of you.... feet are nasty, if you are gonna video tape your feet... wear shoes... please... i dont want to see your hangnail or foot exema... save the sandals for when "the dead" (grateful dead) come to town, please.... sandals became whack just about an hour after woodstock in 69'... Another thing i noticed during the excrutiating podatric nightmare of a video... you are heel-toeing wrong. when you blip, your clutch is in... that is extremely bad for your drivetrain... you are braking, then clutching/braking and then you just start blippin the gas... you're pushing in, and letting the gas and clutch out at the same time and then depressing them both again while braking... that is not heel-toeing you work the clutch and gas independent from eachother, not simultaneously while braking with your toe.... that isnt heel-toe shifting that's breakin-tranny shifting homie.

[SidewaysGts]

Just look at my avatar, when you see the clutch go in and the gas being hit.. thats when youd want to down shift,

all 3, the clutch, gas, and downshift should all be done smoothly at pretty much the same time.

[GRiDRaceTech]

ReD-CeL- "Homie," prepare yourself because you're about to get schooled. Sandals aren't out, they're really quite in. In fact, I'd say the cool surfer guy with sandals look is very trendy out here right now. Just because you keep your feet cooped up doesn't mean that he has to. Hell, the guy made a video to help teach the newbies... that's more than you did. His feet aren't even that bad, anyway.
When one heel-toes, the clutch is in when one blips the throttle; it's a fact. You know the sequence, don't you? Or did you let 2f2f mess with your mind? Clutch in, blip, downshift, clutch out. Your way is double-clutching, not heel-toeing. I believe you're the wrong one here, not he. Not only that, but to blip the throttle whilst clutching in can't be bad for the drivetrain... if it were, don't you think more of my friends who drive M3s would be lunching trannies after consistently heel-toeing for 100k miles or more? Modern transmissions have synchros which help reduce gear clash and thus heel-toeing is a perfectly acceptable way of downshifting in a stable manner.

On a different subject, when I go from 5th to 3rd after some low-rpm cruising, I still go through 4th, I just don't heel-toe until I go from 4th to 3rd. I dunno why, I think it's just rhythm.

[180sxdorift2]

thank you soooo much Gridtech for explaining that to "Red Cell"....when i read what he wrote, i was like "WTF!!??" damn u vin diesel for spreading your "duh" disease!!!!!......

[Parry]

Re: im no pro or anything... but.

Originally posted by ReD-CeL
first off, if this video is of you.... feet are nasty, if you are gonna video tape your feet... wear shoes... please... i dont want to see your hangnail or foot exema... save the sandals for when "the dead" (grateful dead) come to town, please.... sandals became whack just about an hour after woodstock in 69'... Another thing i noticed during the excrutiating podatric nightmare of a video... you are heel-toeing wrong. when you blip, your clutch is in... that is extremely bad for your drivetrain... you are braking, then clutching/braking and then you just start blippin the gas... you're pushing in, and letting the gas and clutch out at the same time and then depressing them both again while braking... that is not heel-toeing you work the clutch and gas independent from eachother, not simultaneously while braking with your toe.... that isnt heel-toe shifting that's breakin-tranny shifting homie.

Uhhhhh........

I fail to see where modulating brake pressure while shifting through 2 gears, rev-matching each one, is not heel-toe. I'm not like the champ or anything but I was under the impression that the video contained an acceptable clip of heel-toe for people to watch and learn from. Please post video of you doing the same, if my sandals or technique are an issue for you. Actually, please post a video of you doing the same just to show me you can.

Also, that car was made in 1991. In the olden days of 1991, Volkswagen was kind enough to provide me with their new, fancy, "SYNCHROMESH TECHNOLOGY" which helps me shift smoothly from gear to gear without having to double clutch. I have found that in many miles of beating the bag out of that car that these "SYNCROS" manage to do an acceptable job of getting from gear to gear without me having to bust a Vinny Diesel on it. In other words, all the trannies I can reasonably expect to encounter in a street car have synchros and when you know how to replace your own transmission the amount of wear and tear saved by double clutching like a move star is so minimal that it's not really worth stressing over.

I would have to say that if my feet look grungy, it is because I have to trudge through the piles of CRAP uninformed, impolite morons throw at me every day on this forum.

Thanks for playing.

[TokiEvolution]

Hmm i dont know it dosn't seem that hard. But then again i was practicing for a month or two when i had my permite but i just seems like some thing u normaly do going in to corners fast to me.
I guess that happins to alot of us when we do it to often.

[birdseedtypeR]

Originally posted by Parry
I posted this in some irrelevent topic in New to drifting, but here.



here's some video:

http://flipty.com/leadpipe/gtipics/feet.avi

Right click, save as.

damn youre even wearing sandals lol

[Parry]

and right next to this thread there's 8 pages about how shoes improve your technique

[SidewaysGts]

After wearing thick bottomed steel toed shoes for my first 6 months of driving, and then trying barefoot because i had sandals that day, i can vouch its much easier when you can feel more and move your foot easier

[birdseedtypeR]

Originally posted by SidewaysGts
After wearing thick bottomed steel toed shoes for my first 6 months of driving, and then trying barefoot because i had sandals that day, i can vouch its much easier when you can feel more and move your foot easier

ya thats why they have those shoes. shoeless with some snug socks work good for me. def. not barefoot because your toes may get caught up ha