“The Hard Call” by Formula D Judge Ken Takahashi

[hatebbobbarker]

There is a difference weather we like it or not. In Japan the style derived from mountain drifting where you would rarely be passing anyone when you battle. Mainly because the road is so narrow and you could get really screwed up if you made a mistake and went off course. And if someone in front of you did make a big enough mistake to allow you to pass, you'd probably stop and see if they're OK. I think it was accepted that you can still win a battle from the rear spot by putting on pressure and riding the rear bumper. Here in America we got a bunch of drivers with previous professional racing experience. They enter these events at huge open areas of space where most turns are high gear sweepers and going off course isn't nearly as bad. Because of some peoples backgrounds, and the style of the events, some people seem to think you should go for a pass whenever possible. I dont think they are intending to do harm, its just the type of aggressiveness born out of competitive racing. The guys that are only into drifting and came from the streets are also aggressive, but they are more reserved because they dont feel the need to go for a pass all the time. I think it all has to do with where you've done all your drifting practice and the type of style you make for yourself. You have to admit always practicing on mountain roads would help you build a different style than the open area high speed sweepers types of practice sessions.

I know your talking to mad max, but you made me think of something.
still doesnt give rhys an excuse, since theres no passing in rally.

[AlexPfeiffer]

This is exactly what i'm talking about, the inside line (passing line) and the drift line, and what will be happening soon if the judges dont do something about it.

http://s6.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2...DV1KEOWMUZ4H4YF

Someone stated that tandem means "tandem" not "versus". That sums it up pretty well.

[my 1 88 u]

This is exactly what i'm talking about, the inside line (passing line) and the drift line, and what will be happening soon if the judges dont do something about it.

http://s6.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2...DV1KEOWMUZ4H4YF

Someone stated that tandem means "tandem" not "versus". That sums it up pretty well.

is that the orido crash video?

[AlexPfeiffer]

yup
(this thing makes you type in ten words so im just typing in words other then just going yup, yup, yup ten times.)

[my 1 88 u]

but he was given the win

[Mike Peters]

IIRC there is a rule stating something to the effect of

' if the follow car makes contact with the lead car causing a crash/spin the follow car is disqualified and the lead car automatically wins '

at least in FD i know there is a rule like that to some effect

[AlexPfeiffer]

Yeah, but it also means both cars are *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*ed up.

[hatebbobbarker]

link didnt work

[Octagon]

Nobody is suggesting that drift cars start welding on nerf bars and such like dirt late models. We're not asking for that and it's rarely the case - that I've seen - that a scenario like that happens when a pass is attempted. Personally speaking, I think that some of tandem's most exciting moments are when the trailing car is poking its nose in mid-drift to look for that opening for a pass.

You're right, Alex, that this isn't dirt track racing. This is drifting, but it's still motorsport, it's still competition, and the quickest (and hardest) way to win is still getting in front of the other guy. Drifting in this country won't become the weekly feature at Shady Bowl Raceway (which is an actual track here in Ohio) just because the pass is heralded as a win. Let's just better police what constitutes a good pass.

One more point on the dirt track v drift statement: It would be neat to see a drift car with a cantilever rear suspension so that it lifts the inside front wheel during the drift to carry the weight transfer during the slide. If you've ever seen a dirt track late model doing its corner wheelie, you know what I mean.

[CrazyHawaiian]

Its hard for me to compare drifting to other motorsports because drifting is not racing. You dont need to be in front to win and you dont have to have the fastest lap time to win. You have to have the best style to win. I think there is a point where tandem battles can become too aggressive, and I consider that bad style. The guy in front should not have to modify his line because of the guy in the rear. If the guy in the rear is so much better, to the point where he could pass, he should just show it by continuing to put pressure on the front car. When the tables are turned and he is leading then he should be able to pull away and get the win. Like alot of people, I also think tandem is the most exciting when the following car puts his front bumper right up next to the leading car applying pressure. But I think where some of us have differences in opinion is where it goes from there. To me, just putting that pressure on the leading car is all I need to see. I dont need to see a pass to determine a winner. I give respect to a driver that is able to consistently apply pressure at a close range without causing contact. Other drivers will also respect that driver because they will build confidence to know that driver has enough control to keep the situation from getting dangereous. Compare that to a driver that will apply pressure to go for a pass and possibly make a reckless move. How do you think that makes other drivers feel?

[Hubert Young]

i think passing should almost be an accident as a
result of the lead car making a big mistake.

Agree... let me say this again: I think matching the drift of the opponent in
front of you involves more car control skills than just going for the pass and push your opponent out of the way or stealing his line. The follow car has to match the drift angle, speed and line of the lead car and that's what makes it tough. So yes, I maintain that passing should only be allowed when the lead car CLEARLY MAKES A MISTAKE. This is not a race.

[Octagon]

Crazy Hawaiian, you charge that drifting becomes too aggressive when drivers push for the pass and therefore loses some of its "spirit".

Well, here's the way I - as a competitor - see a chance to pass.

I'm starting out trailing in the first run. I can come out of this run with four outcomes.

Outcome 1: Advantage Opponent - I either dropped behind because I wasn't as fast as the opponent, or I received fewer points because I didn't have enough angle/smoke or chose a loose line.

Outcome 2: Advantage Even - I matched my opponent move for move. I didn't gain ground, but I didn't lose it either. I wasn't better, but I wasn't worse.

Outcome 3: Advantage Me - I was poking my nose in on my opponent, running faster or more sideways on a better line. I impressed the judges with superior driving.

But here's the kicker, all of this can be undone in the second run. With outcome 1 or 2, I have to run away from the opponent and push my car even harder than I did in the first run to make up for the lack of results in the first run. If I make one mistake or my opponent is able to step it up in the second run, I'm hosed.

With Outcome 3, I have a little more breathing room, but I still have to keep ahead of my opponent, put space between me and him, and throw-up an angle he can't match. If I can't do any of those, the run goes to a one more time, and I have another shot at losing the round PLUS I risk breakage on my car because of added time running.

Now, here's Outcome #4

Outcome #4: Win by Passing - I'm faster on my run while matching/bettering my opponent's angle. I find a better line than him and get around him at or after the first clipping point.

What happens now is I get to conserve my equipment and run an easy, cut-and-paste line on the second run that just barely keeps me in front. The pressure is off, the win is practically mine, and I can concentrate on how to change the setup/approach the track in the next round, making my chances for an overall victory that much better.

And with a decent paycheck, national (and international exposure) for my sponsors, and that many more points towards a championship all lying after that win, I'm going to go for that win right away.

It's professional motorsport guys. This is what happens in professional motorsport - you aim to win, and hang on tenaciously to whatever chance of winning you have like a wolf whose jaws are clamped on the throat of an elk.

[TIREKILLER]

A pass should have no relavence! Its not hard to pass a slower/less powerful car, even in a drift. The challenge of being in the back during a tandem run is FOLLOWING. Its much harder to adapt your (fast) style to a slower competitor YOU have to change your technique and prove that you can drift in any situation. Not that you can blast past your competitor and make a run just like you would in a solo run. If your leading you run YOUR line! The same one you have been running all day, the one that got you to the tandem rounds in the first place. That is to say that you should also be running balls out all day no matter what anyway!

The only reason that the trailing car should cross the end of the judged area first is if the lead car makes a horible mistake like a spin or some other off track event. Which would automaticaly give the advantage to the trailing car.

[Drift Brick]

whay are we changing what has been one of the founding rules of competitive drifting from day1? "Pass=win" is a part of the very foundation fo drifting as a sport. If passing and aggressiveness isnt encouraged, then I might as well be watching synchronized swimming (as so many older guys fomr the SCCA love to remind us).

I love drifting, but part of my love for the sport comes from my love of touring car racing, rally, etc.

with passing emliminated as a competitive option, or (even worse) becoming a formality, I think we'd see tandem become boring. the point is to pressure the other guy. to get him to lose his line and his lunch- to be the better, harder, faster, more aggressive driver. I know finishing first isnt the objective here, but alot of drifting's appeal comes from the high speed, hardcore nature of it. then again, I am more of a speed first, then angle kind of guy.

so I see two distinct approaches to judging tandem here.

1. Leader drives the best, fastest, smoothest drift line he/she can, while maintaining angle and smoke. follower mimics this line to the best of his ability, trying to do the same thing better. passes occur after mistakes like spins or understeers, or when the leader runs WAY wide. (which would result in a "0" score for them anyway, except in the case of running super wide.)

2. Leader drives the best, fastest, smoothest drift line he/she can, while maintaining angle and smoke, while protecting against a pass and trying to make the follower break his line or stop drifting. Folower tries to be faster, have more angle, and get as close to the leader as possible. if the opportunity presents itself for a pass, he does. (If he hits the other car enough to make either driver correct, its a 0 score for him.)

option2 reminds me more of D1, where the objective is to get inside the leader and steal his line or pass. Formula D is more like the first option... and it shouldnt be, in my opinion.

I know that the US is different from Japan, the tracks are different, the cars are different, the drivers are different. but why should the rules be? if it comes up in practice that something like what happened at wall w/ the milano S13 could happen again and give some car an unfair advantage, THATS WHAT THE JUDGES ARE FOR!!!!!!!!!! They should see it coming because they have superior motorsport experience, should have driven (or at least ridden the course, and they should let the drivers know what is and isnt acceptable there. Keiichi does it all the time. like at Irwindale- " hitting the wall is OK, as long as you dont correct." Or ebisu- "if the right front tire passes the middle of the kerbing, youre considered off-course and out of control."



this is all doable. just get drivers to judge. (there, I said it.)



and yes, i know Tarzan is a judge and who he is and how he drives and what hes done, etc. I was at D1 when the viper came out. Ive seen him run time attack, and Ive seen a lot of option videos with him. im aware that he is, in fact, a fantastic driver. also, I know about the other japanese guy, whos name I cant recall. but he qualified for D1, so he probably doesnt suck too much .

[CrazyHawaiian]

Where did this idea that passing = win come from? I think it is the result of people interpreting tandem battling wrong. If you guys think any series or event in the USA played any part in founding this sport, I'm sorry to say, but you are flat out wrong. This sport has been going on in Japan for over a decade before it became popular in the USA. If anyone had any say in the foundations of drifting, its the guys from Japan. To really find the "answer" here I think you guys need to analyze how competitions are done in Japan, and then compare it to how it has been going on in the USA. And I dont mean just watch some videos and interpret it as you see fit, I mean actually figgure out whats going on, maybe even talk to some people involved. In Japan you might see a pass here or there, but it only happens when the lead car makes a big mistake and spins out or goes off course. While it may appear the following car is going for a pass all the time, that is not whats going on. The following car is trying to stay as close to the lead car as possible at all times without making contact. He's showing how much control he has by remaining inches apart through multiple turns at speed. That is what makes tandem drifting battles exciting. Having two cars sliding sideways at high speeds only inches apart. Passing has nothing to do with it.

I do think drifting in the USA would become too aggressive if passing became an acceptable way of winning. I think we would end up with a bunch of people crashing into eachother, and thats not drifting to me. Car control would become secondary and focus would be put on car placement. Its definately not where I want to see the sport go. Drifting is not a race, its an exhibition of car control and I want to see it stay that way.