FORMULA D Rule Changes...

[courantcom]

The strut setup on the front of the Team SA Skyline is similar to the front strut setup on a S14. The rear subframe and suspension on an S14 is the same as an R34.

Engine modifications/ swaps are legal. Body changes are legal. The Team SA car has no advantage over a properly built S14 with an RB26 swap. If anything it is at a disadvantage because its heavier. Someone said the chassis on the R34 is stiffer, but with a properly built S14 chassis and rollcage, it will be just as stiff.

Who wants to see another S14 running the series ? Who wants to see an R34 Skyline out running the series ?

Where are the problems and inconsistencies ? In the Formula Drift rules.

The car is a threat, the other teams must have been really scared of it.

I already said something about this:

---
Post #157

Yes, a really good point has been brought up here. Okay, so basically, if the SA car was in fact an S-Chassis car, with an RB swap, and Skyline body parts...IT would be legal according to Formula D rules. OEM Skyline front fenders, OEM hood, bumper, headlights...OEM Skyline tails, trunk, and rear bumper...

8.1.2.1 Cars must maintain the OEM look and feel and be clean, free of damage and presentable for competition.

8.1.2.2 Aftermarket body panels, front and/or rear fascias, side skirts and wings, etc. are permitted; body work that is not designed as O.E.M. or an O.E.M. replacement of the original make and model of the vehicle must be approved by FORMULA DRIFT.

8.2.1.1 Engine and transmission modifications are free.

See what I mean? ...there's a problem with the rulebook.

---

Lots of answers were already given to lots of "new" questions being asked.

[courantcom]

I will make this short and sweet. Adding more to this thread is only hurting the sport, and all involved.

This is NOT a "pick on" the Skyline because its top 10 in points. Why would Formula D single out Takatori? because its a Skyline? Okubo last year was not singled out.

Maybe because Okubo wasn't a threat? Enlighten us all and tell us how many events he did last year, and how many points. I'll answer the points one. He got 56 points last year. That's 26th place. Takatori is currently 6th (after penalties). Takatori is scheduled to do each and every one this year. Need I say more about this?

This is a prime example of following Protocol. IF SA drift went through the right channels and got PRE-APPROVAL, none of this would be an issue. This is an example of following the rules created by FD. Im sure if SA wouldve told them that they are making the mods to be competetive, BEFOREHAND, Formula D would have been fine with it. Do you honestly think that Takatoris car is the only car thats not running the "OEM" setup?

We have been discussing this over and over and over. IF you honestly think Formula D would have been fine with the mods BEFOREHAND, then the mods shouldn't matter NOW, right? Apply a FINE and DEDUCT POINTS to the SA Drift team for not being able to follow protocall, and move forward. Do you agree or disagree?

SA drift has already admitted to not getting pre-approval. That is the problem. If it was a "lost-in-translation" issue, where it was not translated that it needed to get pre-approval, then im sure that FD will work with the team. It seems that SA knows that they did not get pre-approval, so there is the issue.

These issues should be left private. Im sure that this is NOT the first issue of not following protocol, and will NOT be the last. The only difference is that certain people tied to SA have decided to speak openly to the public about it.

Check with other teams, im sure MOST have had issues that THEY NEEDED TO CHANGE AND FIX BEFORE A CERTAIN EVENT, OR RISK INELIGIBILITY. THEY KEPT IN PRIVATE, AND MADE THE CHANGES NEEDED TO RUN.

And for people to say that Eddie (Peak/Dynamic) and Bergenholtz are "afraid" of the competition, that is the most ignorant thing to be said. Ron and Eddie, have both helped out teams in need, regardless of if they are up against their drivers. Numerous drivers have bought parts from Eddie, and they are not teammates with Robbie or Joon. The reason why these guys are still around is because they are not biased and will help you out in order to help put on a great show for the fans, and because, they are genuinely nice people. Its a shame that there are not more people like this in this sport.

Don't make it like those guys you mentioned above are the only people that have helped out teams in need. Round 1, someone needed harnesses to pass tech. Where do you think he got them? I took them out of OUR OWN race car that was on display on the car show side so that it can be used to race with. EVERYONE knows that my resources and equipment on board our truck is available to anyone that asks...I've lent out TOOLS, PARTS, EQUIPMENT...like our vice, compressed air, anything man...use of the lift to get cars up in the air so that you can work on the transmission of a car. Everywhere I go, I go with all my stuff. I've helped out people in Laughlin, NV for Pro-Am events...help out stranded people on the side of PCH in the middle of the night with the rig just so that we could get to an event out in Las Vegas, NV. Dude...I can go on and on, and this is just stuff that's coming into my mind for the last part of 2007 and into 2008. I don't even wanna go into how many drivers I have helped all through D1 in 2006 and 2007. I can even go further and start pulling up things during the time I was involved with drag racing. Ask ANYONE. My doors are never closed. Bite your tongue kid. I help everyone out...even if that means a bottle of water, or a can of my prized Red Bull.

I hope to see Takatori, and SA drift at the track in Vegas. Hopefully all is corrected beforehand.

Best of luck to all teams.

[courantcom]

8.1.1.4 Cars must maintain the original OEM unibody and/or frame structure between the original front and rear suspension mounting points.

THIS IS WHY THE CAR IS ILLEGAL!!

So explain why SA should be allowed to run a car that violated this rule, without getting pre-approval from FD. And try to do it without accusing other teams of breaking the rules.

The R34 is the ONLY CAR that has parts of a unibody from another car on it. It has not only changed the pick-up points but it has completly removed the unibody that came on the car from the factory. I am pretty sure thats the reason that it has been penalized. EVERY CAR in the series has aftermarket suspension on it, no one runs the stock shocks on their car in FD. Just because SA wasn't smart enough to contact FD about the changes to their car before hand, don't assume that every team made that same mistake.

The way that the representatives of the SA team have handeled this matter by flaming on internet forums is very unprofessional. Making unfounded accusations on other teams that their car is illegal on internet forums without knowing the facts is childish.

Dude, I don't even wanna say too much about this, other than that the rule SA Drift violates is:
8.3.1 The basic OEM suspension design must remain. Any changes to design type suspension must be preaproved by Formula Drift.

Um, it's not the rule that you eloquently brought up and begun to argue.

You said that, "Making unfounded accusations on other teams that their car is illegal on internet forums without knowing the facts is childish." Is bringing up the wrong rule all together and arguing about it more childish? Oh wait, I don't wanna be called an e-thug here and just be labeled as someone that argues with everyone. Happy 4th of July! =)

[thenewguys]

Dude, I don't even wanna say too much about this, other than that the rule SA Drift violates is:
8.3.1 The basic OEM suspension design must remain. Any changes to design type suspension must be preaproved by Formula Drift.

Um, it's not the rule that you eloquently brought up and begun to argue.

You said that, "Making unfounded accusations on other teams that their car is illegal on internet forums without knowing the facts is childish." Is bringing up the wrong rule all together and arguing about it more childish? Oh wait, I don't wanna be called an e-thug here and just be labeled as someone that argues with everyone. Happy 4th of July! =)

Wrong

8.3.1 Is one of the violations of SA.

8.1.1.4 Would be another violation, and I even drew it out for you.
[IMG][/IMG]

So by replacing the unibody, it has allowed them to violate 8.3.1. But until they put what came from the factory back on I don't think they should get the green light from FD.

As far as the "pre-approved" or "magic list" that tyndago speaks of. I would assume that the other teams have use their "telephone" to call FD and let them know what modifications they are making to their cars suspension. I don't buy this conspiracy theory for 1 second.

The bottom line is that SA has been assessed a penalty, period. They got off light in my opinion. They (you included) should stop whining about it and move on.

[CamelTouge]

Maybe because Okubo wasn't a threat? Enlighten us all and tell us how many events he did last year, and how many points. I'll answer the points one. He got 56 points last year. That's 26th place. Takatori is currently 6th (after penalties). Takatori is scheduled to do each and every one this year. Need I say more about this?

My apologies. I was referring to the Okubo from 2 years ago. The one that got a 1st place finish, top 16s, and so forth. and was considered a threat.

We have been discussing this over and over and over. IF you honestly think Formula D would have been fine with the mods BEFOREHAND, then the mods shouldn't matter NOW, right? Apply a FINE and DEDUCT POINTS to the SA Drift team for not being able to follow protocall, and move forward. Do you agree or disagree?

I can agree that if FD wouldve approved it beforehand, then they should fine SA for not following protocol and let them run in vegas. However, hasnt this been an issue since Long Beach? They have obviously ran since then, correct? Maybe SA needs to fix the issue, or pay the fine. This is a decision that needs to be made between SA and FD, no need to involve the public, or others who do not need to step in.

Don't make it like those guys you mentioned above are the only people that have helped out teams in need. Round 1, someone needed harnesses to pass tech. Where do you think he got them? I took them out of OUR OWN race car that was on display on the car show side so that it can be used to race with. EVERYONE knows that my resources and equipment on board our truck is available to anyone that asks...I've lent out TOOLS, PARTS, EQUIPMENT...like our vice, compressed air, anything man...use of the lift to get cars up in the air so that you can work on the transmission of a car. Everywhere I go, I go with all my stuff. I've helped out people in Laughlin, NV for Pro-Am events...help out stranded people on the side of PCH in the middle of the night with the rig just so that we could get to an event out in Las Vegas, NV. Dude...I can go on and on, and this is just stuff that's coming into my mind for the last part of 2007 and into 2008. I don't even wanna go into how many drivers I have helped all through D1 in 2006 and 2007. I can even go further and start pulling up things during the time I was involved with drag racing. Ask ANYONE. My doors are never closed. Bite your tongue kid. I help everyone out...even if that means a bottle of water, or a can of my prized Red Bull.

Victor, you completely missed my point. For some to claim that Eddie and Berg are "afraid of the competetion", but yet Eddie and Berg have helped out other teams is the most ignorant comment that was made. I am not questioning your helping with other teams, and im sure and have witnessed your assistance in person.

If Eddie and Berg were actually afraid of competition, do you really think they would help out other teams/tire sponsors? THAT WAS MY POINT.

[sa-drift.com]

WrongAs far as the "pre-approved" or "magic list" that tyndago speaks of. I would assume that the other teams have use their "telephone" to call FD and let them know what modifications they are making to their cars suspension. I don't buy this conspiracy theory for 1 second.

Speaking of conspiracy, what's with your anonymous posts? Who are you? It's blatently obviously you work at Formula DRIFT as you've mentioned a few elements of the issue that were not made public that only the team and Formula DRIFT employees would know. Unless you were smart enough to post from somewhere besides home or the office, we'll probably find out anyway so here's your chance to just man up and tell us who you are.

The bottom line is that SA has been assessed a penalty, period. They got off light in my opinion. They (you included) should stop whining about it and move on.

It's not about whether we change it back or not at this point, it's the fact that the rule is only being enforced on our vehicle. Is it whining or a sob story or too much to ask that the rules be applied/enforced the same with every vehicle? The problem here is right now there are several vehicles in the series with similar modifications. Our vehicle is clearly the milder of them all and yet the only vehicle the rule is being enforced on. If we change it back will all the other vehicles in violation of the same rules be forced to change their cars back? If not, there is a serious problem...and that's an issue that the public should be aware of.

We left the D1 series because we felt politics/business prevented the series from being held in a fair manner....we have much higher expectations than that....every team should...this is Formula DRIFT's chance to prove they're better than that....

[CamelTouge]

It's not about whether we change it back or not at this point, it's the fact that the rule is only being enforced on our vehicle. Is it whining or a sob story or too much to ask that the rules be applied/enforced the same with every vehicle? The problem here is right now there are several vehicles in the series with similar modifications, our vehicle is clearly the milder of them all and yet the only vehicle the rule is being enforced on. If we change it back will all the other vehicles in violation of the same rules be forced to chane their cars back? If not, there is a serious problem...

There may be vehicles with similar modifications, but they got PREAPPROVAL.
That is the problem.

SA drift, Roo, Takatori, and all that got involved, please work with FD and get this resolved ASAP. Takatori is a talented driver, and deserves to be at Vegas.

[OldSkool510]

THIS is the only forum in which I have been voicing my thoughts. I had awareness that it was alive in other forums, but I'm not there. That means that all the other "talks" that are going on in OTHER forums are OTHER concerned people that have something to say about all this.

Don't you realize that all the other "talks" were started by your alleged implications of impropriety by Formula D.


Maybe that's why this is such a controversial and *HOT* topic? It has to be, and that will explain why it's so popular, and makes everyone form an opinion of what's going on one way or the other. It challenges Formula D, which was long looked upon as the best sanctioning body to organize professional drifting. Anyone remember when Formula D was working with SCCA? I don't really know what SCCA did, and what Formula D did, but I think SCCA did the car side of things (rules and regulations), and Formula D did the other part of organizing an event (promotion and ticket sales). I'm NOT sure...but it makes sense that way.

You can challenge Formula D any way you want, but keep in mind they have the last word on everything. They have the ultimate say so, you're just a squirrel trying to get a nut in their world. If you don't like the flavor of their nuts, then go somewhere else.

When people think of Formula D, they think of FORMULA D. The racers are always viewed as drift drivers. If anything, a lot of people out there still associate drifting with D1. Wanna argue with that? How long has D1 been around in the world? So...when people think of Formula D, they think of FORMULA D, and nothing more.

Anyone involved in any aspect of FORMULA D, is a representative of FORMULA D. Can't you see that? The racers are viewed as FORMULA D drift drivers. A perfect example would be the UPS driver. Is he viewed as a delivery driver or the UPS guy? He's accountable for everything he does while he's in that brown truck because he's representing UPS.

D1? When is their next event in the US? I will go to D1 when they come back, too. FORMULA D is the only thing going on right now , that's why it's best to make the situation better.

We're not trying to kill Formula D. We're trying to highlight issues that need addressing. We have also made very good suggestions as to how to handle this particular issue. I don't think I need to revitalize old posts within this thread. It's not any of our faults on here if Formula D doesn't want to do anything about it, other than Formula D itself. Do you agree or disagree?

It's FORMULA D's business. They're the ones who have invested the time and money to make it what it is today. If you don't like their rules and regulations, move on. I don't know if you're own boss or not, but when you own the business you call all the shots. I'm a business owner and have employees who suggests ideas all the time. It's entirely up to me, and solely me, to decide if I want to impliment their ideas or not. No hard feelings, just move on.

It seems FORMULA D has been successful with their current formula of operations. More success for them equates to greater success for all those involved.


When Formula D emerged, I'm sure they set their sights on D1. I'm sure when news that D1 was going to stop having events in the USA, Formula D quietly celebrated. You say that many of them will spend the $$$$$ elsewhere. Maybe it's time for another sanctioning body to emerge.

Another sactioning body? Do you really think sponsors would come out and support drifting as a motorsport if Formula D goes under. That would be two drifting oraginizations down the drain in a matter of a couple years. How many companies do you know would be willing to take that risk?

It would just be another great idea that didn't and cannot work. FORMULA D has gotten bigger and bigger since its inception. You seem to be implying that FORMULA D drove D1 back to Japan. Personally, I think FORMULA D just had a better product. Don't get me wrong, I love the D1 style of drifting. The FORMULA D venues were just more entertaing as a whole. That's what attracts spectators to these events.

Only FORMULA D needs to find a quick and amicable resolution to this issue. Formula D needs to be aware that this has an effect on everyone. All I am is someone that sees something wrong. All I ever have done was ask questions, and bring things up. Don't blame any of us for pressing an issue.

Once again, it's FORMULA D's rules and regulations and it's entirely up to them to enforce it as they see fit.
In your post number 271, you said that rules are rules, and they need to be clear without any loopholes in it. NOW, in your last post, you're backing Formula D up?

Please read above in bold. Had difficulties quoting.

Yes, rules are rules. Most rules written do have loopholes which can be circumvented at times. If FORMULA D needs to re-write the rules to make it more black and white, then so be it. Let them know about it. Maybe if you guys had approached FORMULA D and notfied them of some gray area in the rule book that needed further clarification, maybe things would have turned out differently.

I just hope all this gets resolved soon. Personally, I want to see the SA SKYLINE out there representing for the imports this week in Vegas.


It's just this issue should have remained behind closed doors. What's going public with a decision you didn't like going to do for anyone anyways?

[tyndago]

There may be vehicles with similar modifications, but they got PREAPPROVAL.That is the problem.

Who got pre-approval ? Formula Drift said they have some on-going investigations. How many...not even Formula Drift knows......dum...dum...dum....

SA drift, Roo, Takatori, and all that got involved, please work with FD and get this resolved ASAP. Takatori is a talented driver, and deserves to be at Vegas.

I guess no one has thought that Team SA could pat their head, and rub their stomach at the same time. Unhappy with the ruling, still putting the A-arm OEM suspension to replace the OEM strut suspension. Time however is a factor, as parts must come from Japan, or someone like me, that just might have a few of the parts in the US.

[courantcom]

My apologies. I was referring to the Okubo from 2 years ago. The one that got a 1st place finish, top 16s, and so forth. and was considered a threat.

;-)

I can agree that if FD wouldve approved it beforehand, then they should fine SA for not following protocol and let them run in vegas. However, hasnt this been an issue since Long Beach? They have obviously ran since then, correct? Maybe SA needs to fix the issue, or pay the fine. This is a decision that needs to be made between SA and FD, no need to involve the public, or others who do not need to step in.

Formula D is allowing the car to run in Vegas, with a $250 penalty on top of everything, if the car is ran as-is. The "talks" have been an issue since Long Beach, CA. Round 2 was free and clear. No dialogue between SA Drift and Formula D. Round 3...same thing - free and clear, but SA Drift heard a "buzz" about it around the pits...but Formula D didn't approach SA Drift either. June 23, 2008 - a letter was sent to SA Drift.

Victor, you completely missed my point. For some to claim that Eddie and Berg are "afraid of the competetion", but yet Eddie and Berg have helped out other teams is the most ignorant comment that was made. I am not questioning your helping with other teams, and im sure and have witnessed your assistance in person.

If Eddie and Berg were actually afraid of competition, do you really think they would help out other teams/tire sponsors? THAT WAS MY POINT.

Point taken. At one point in all this, people started to think that I'm the one that said that they think that everything is a threat.

[courantcom]

There may be vehicles with similar modifications, but they got PREAPPROVAL.
That is the problem.

SA drift, Roo, Takatori, and all that got involved, please work with FD and get this resolved ASAP. Takatori is a talented driver, and deserves to be at Vegas.

They maybe got preapproval, but nobody will ever know. A list was asked of them, but they never produced a list. People asked in person, over email, phone, and also through this thread. No response from Formula D.

...as far as all this goes, it seems as if Formula D should be working with SA Drift as well.

[tyndago]

WrongAs far as the "pre-approved" or "magic list" that tyndago speaks of. I would assume that the other teams have use their "telephone" to call FD and let them know what modifications they are making to their cars suspension.

So then. If they use the magic TELEPHONE to get "pre-approval", who knows what is "pre-approved" ?

The Chief Steward has been on the job 2 years ? Before then it was SCCA correct ? If the Chief Steward goes the way of the SCCA , does everyone have to call the new Chief Steward to get "pre-approval".

Does this method sound broken to you ?

There is no written proof of "pre-approvals". They can be whatever Formula Drift wants them to be, or not to be.

[_PG_]

I've posted more in depth about this on a private forum (zt) because its come up there and its a bit like fighting 2 fronts, but 1 group is in the dark and 1 group is informed.

What I will summarize:

If the car's framerails and gas tank are laid out in the same way, it will share its chassis code. It does not by any means mean that the cars are the same. The UNIBODY of the cars are different. The way the cars translate load paths and forces through the body, and how it creates mechanical grip ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

I'd peg a stock R34 being at LEAAASTT 40% stiffer than its brethren. Even more, actually if the car was a GTR. And if it wer a N-Spec it would be even more. So lets say an R34 GTR would be at least 60% stiffer than a standard "34" chassis car.

Tell me that they are the same now.

You want to say I'm an idiot and I'm just hating. But the thing about that is I've worked at OEM car companies and I'm a transportation designer. Got a Bachelor of Science degree in that field, and not only have designed cars, chassis, worked with engineers, packaging, and racing experience, drifting, etc. I'm not gonna post a resume or claim superiority over anyone, but think about what I DO, and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

I'm not a "fan" that sits in the stands.

[tyndago]

I'd peg a stock R34 being at LEAAASTT 40% stiffer than its brethren. Even more, actually if the car was a GTR. And if it wer a N-Spec it would be even more. So lets say an R34 GTR would be at least 60% stiffer than a standard "34" chassis car..

40% based on what data ? What exactly makes an R34 40% stiffer than its brethren ?

We can talk all about chassis. I would like to know what a "N-Spec" is. Are you trying to say "Nur" spec. One of the last 1000 cars made. 750 V-Spec II , 250 M-Spec cars ? The ones that have exactly the same chassis as the other R34 GT-R's ? No more or less stiff than the other cars. I have been working with Nissan Skyline GT-R's since 1999, I know a thing or two about them.

Most of the chassis stiffening in the R34 GT-R is bolt in/on parts.

So then, a properly built R34 with a cage, will be how much more stiff than a C34, or S14 that has been seem welded, and has a cage ?

What car will be heavier ? Is the lighter or heavier car better for drifting ?

[carboy]

Omt

PG.....still gettin owned

bueller? bueller? anyone? anyone?