(FEEDBACK) FORMULA D ATLANTA May 8-9th 2009

[Formula D]

Guys,

Tires are controversial topic, yes, and Courantcom/Mr.Two you have your right to be critical of the way we answer to certain topics. Generally you are. That is your right. We do our best to answer questions in public that will satisfy you, but most times they do not even if it is the truth straight up. Let me say I have spoken with Pat and other drivers at length after the fact and it is my feeling that everyone understands the parameters of this issue. That is the most important thing and the people we deserve to address first. In this situation, the issue is more complex and certain people including Pat deserve a certain level of confidentiality until everything plays out. First we have an obligation to them: Teams and drivers. After that I am sure it will all be public and you guys can go to town on every aspect of the rulings, who is involved, etc etc.

I love F1 and they are probably the single most controversial sporting entity out there so in some sense, I enjoy knowing that even they don't have it all right. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/07/1...t-f1-scandals/

[DriftChick]

Getting disqualified doesn't sound like a small infraction. If Formula D wanted to enforce their tire rules, then they should have given Pat Mordaunt that pill during practice on Thursday, instead of allowing him to advance into the final 8 round -- and then disqualifying him. Maybe if they told him on Thursday (practice), he would have had a small chance to source a different type of tire to proceed with the competition.

To my knowledge, many series do their testing after an event. You can't blame FD for an infraction that they caught, whether it happened before or after a run/event. It's up to the drivers to follow the rules, no matter how small or insignificant they may seem. You guys are saying rules should be enforced, and that is what they are doing.

They get in trouble because their explanations are not very strong or well founded. Of all the times I post on here asking for explanations, all I get is a request to speak with someone in private over the phone, in person, in an office, etc. Why not speak here...where everyone can see. Formula D is an event that is available to the public. It's a public event. Their rules are available to the public via their website. If it's all available to the public, then it can be subject to public scrutiny.

He did answer your questions, but you call his answers weak and unfounded, regardless of what he says. he doesn't even stand a chance.

This can go both ways... "It's nice to see Pat Mordaunt doing so well, despite the evil economy, but unfortunately there will be always be the same people sitting by their desks ready to attempt to take someone/something successful down a few pegs if they can." ;-)

A rule is a rule, it was up to him to follow it, regardless of whether he knew about his tire issues or not. You can't blame FD for enforcing the rules.

I'm a fanatic, a fanaylist...a concerned voice. Nonetheless, I know I'm a voice of reason, and I ask very valid questions.

Sure. But you downplay valid answers too.

No...only their $ponsor$ will get pissed and wonder why their sponsored team was disqualified, and then maybe their sponsor dollars to Formula D may be in jeopardy. So...from Formula D's standpoint, why would they DQ a competitor that brings them money. Rhys Millen brings in Hyundai and Red Bull. Sam Hubinette brings in BF Goodrich and Mopar. Rhys Millen was on Toyo R1-R tires -- same as Pat Mordaunt. In this "tough economy", everyone needs to do what they can to get the dollars.

I've seen first hand how sponsored drivers do not get special treatment. Believe it or not, some sponsors don't care about how well their driver's finish (to an extent of course). It's about visibility and connecting with the customers that buy their products. 1st place doesn't guarantee sales, and they aren't going to drop out of the series if their car isn't always on he podium.

This makes me wonder who you are now...not everyone can get a chance to get a ride from any driver in Formula D. You're not media...but maybe you were given media access. I'm guessing you worked for Formula D over the weekend...yeah.

This further proves my point that you like to make assumptions and invent conspiracies. I work for FD? Not a chance. Any idiot that walks through the paddocks can walk up to a driver/team/mechanic and ask for a ride in the car. Sometimes being female has its advantages. But nice try.

Anyways...there's a serious subject in this thread. Tires tires tires...which tires did not comply with Formula D's durometer test? Toyo R1-R's for sure...what about Hankook?

Finally! A constructive question!

[OldSkool510]

Tiregate........

[courantcom]

Well this thread has gone all to hell.

It often seems that the people directly affected by a tough enforcement of the rules swallow the pill and move on, while their supporters or "people in the know" that aren't even involved in the series drag the issues out online for months and months until a small infraction becomes drifting's own version of Watergate.

Getting disqualified doesn't sound like a small infraction. If Formula D wanted to enforce their tire rules, then they should have given Pat Mordaunt that pill during practice on Thursday, instead of allowing him to advance into the final 8 round -- and then disqualifying him. Maybe if they told him on Thursday (practice), he would have had a small chance to source a different type of tire to proceed with the competition.

Formula D is nice enough to actually try to discuss and explain the situation on a forum (which more often than not gets them in more trouble) to some closed-minded people that have their minds set on crushing any FD explanations with accusations of fraud, conspiracy and "minimalist PR answers".

They get in trouble because their explanations are not very strong or well founded. Of all the times I post on here asking for explanations, all I get is a request to speak with someone in private over the phone, in person, in an office, etc. Why not speak here...where everyone can see. Formula D is an event that is available to the public. It's a public event. Their rules are available to the public via their website. If it's all available to the public, then it can be subject to public scrutiny.

It's nice to see FD doing so well, despite the evil economy, but unfortunately there will always be the same people sitting by their computers ready to attempt to take someone/something successful down a few pegs if they can.

This can go both ways... "It's nice to see Pat Mordaunt doing so well, despite the evil economy, but unfortunately there will be always be the same people sitting by their desks ready to attempt to take someone/something successful down a few pegs if they can." ;-)

Let the teams do the talking to FD, I'm sure they're all big boys and can pick up a phone to voice their opinions and concerns all by themselves.

I'm a fanatic, a fanaylist...a concerned voice. Nonetheless, I know I'm a voice of reason, and I ask very valid questions.

Just a thought, but would everyone be so pissed if it was Rhys Millen or Sam Hubinette that got DQ'd over a tire issue? I really doubt it. It would be more of a "he deserves it" tone in this thread I think.

No...only their $ponsor$ will get pissed and wonder why their sponsored team was disqualified, and then maybe their sponsor dollars to Formula D may be in jeopardy. So...from Formula D's standpoint, why would they DQ a competitor that brings them money. Rhys Millen brings in Hyundai and Red Bull. Sam Hubinette brings in BF Goodrich and Mopar. Rhys Millen was on Toyo R1-R tires -- same as Pat Mordaunt. In this "tough economy", everyone needs to do what they can to get the dollars.

/end rant.

Back to the topic of this thread.... I loved the whole weekend! I had an amazing time, and can't wait to see another FD event. I was sad to see Foxy Foust out so soon though. I was trying to get a ride in his car on Friday, but it didn't work out. Maybe next time!

This makes me wonder who you are now...not everyone can get a chance to get a ride from any driver in Formula D. You're not media...but maybe you were given media access. I'm guessing you worked for Formula D over the weekend...yeah.

Anyways...there's a serious subject in this thread. Tires tires tires...which tires did not comply with Formula D's durometer test? Toyo R1-R's for sure...what about Hankook?

[DriftChick]

Well this thread has gone all to hell.

It often seems that the people directly affected by a tough enforcement of the rules swallow the pill and move on, while their supporters or "people in the know" that aren't even involved in the series drag the issues out online for months and months until a small infraction becomes drifting's own version of Watergate.

Formula D is nice enough to actually try to discuss and explain the situation on a forum (which more often than not gets them in more trouble) to some closed-minded people that have their minds set on crushing any FD explanations with accusations of fraud, conspiracy and "minimalist PR answers".

It's nice to see FD doing so well, despite the evil economy, but unfortunately there will always be the same people sitting by their computers ready to attempt to take someone/something successful down a few pegs if they can.

Let the teams do the talking to FD, I'm sure they're all big boys and can pick up a phone to voice their opinions and concerns all by themselves.

Just a thought, but would everyone be so pissed if it was Rhys Millen or Sam Hubinette that got DQ'd over a tire issue? I really doubt it. It would be more of a "he deserves it" tone in this thread I think.

/end rant.

Back to the topic of this thread.... I loved the whole weekend! I had an amazing time, and can't wait to see another FD event. I was sad to see Foxy Foust out so soon though. I was trying to get a ride in his car on Friday, but it didn't work out. Maybe next time!

[courantcom]

dang... i'd be so pissed if anyone talked to me like that... well.. good thing i dont have to deal with all this drama. from the looks of things ATL was a great event other than this tire issue. I am sure everything will be figured out. wished i could have been out there watching this event live! being a poor college student sucks..

Actually, certain competitors were straight up "talked at" by Formula D with regards to their controversial decision. I don't think I need to elaborate exactly on the tone or exactly who said what and how. Either way, I'm also in your shoes and I don't have to deal with all this drama...but I like to be aware of it and speak my thoughts about it. As always, and with time, everything in life gets sorted out on its own. I'm hoping that everyone watches Formula D with a magnifying glass to see how they go about solving this issue. Last year's issue was the topic of "modified suspension". This year's topic seems like "tires".

The event itself was really good! Road Atlanta is an excellent facility with adequate parking, adequate walkways, adequate facilities, etc. On top of that, Road Atlanta itself is a beautifully set track...like a race track embedded in a forest. Once the fans hear which drivers are coming, they start making plans on going. The fans come because of the drivers.

I think it would have been a better idea, though, to put the vendor booths up top by the where the amphitheater style seating would be. That way, it won't be such a 3/4 mile round trip walk for the fans. Instead, that area was general parking. Park the cars down where the paddock is, and put the vendor booths up there instead.

[NNog]

And your tone often comes off as arrogant as your trying to look like the only person who knows Anything at all.




Classic PR, and an attempt to answer only the most minimal questions, reply to statements off the true topic at hand to avoid providing a real answer, and at the same time trying to make the people asking the questions wrong to discredit the validity of the topic.

dang... i'd be so pissed if anyone talked to me like that... well.. good thing i dont have to deal with all this drama. from the looks of things ATL was a great event other than this tire issue. I am sure everything will be figured out. wished i could have been out there watching this event live! being a poor college student sucks..

[Mr.Two]

I am happy to answer questions, but often your tone, sarcasm and sometimes disrespect doesn't provide us with much of a reason to respond.

And your tone often comes off as arrogant as your trying to look like the only person who knows Anything at all.

Those readings were taken after each successive head-to-head in the top 16 on "hot tires" by Doug Artus, our starter, a veteran of the sport. Not a volunteer. Volunteers have taken readings in the past so I see how you might be confused.

FD was started in August of 2003 which makes 5 years, 8 months old. That's pretty much 6 to me.

Classic PR, and an attempt to answer only the most minimal questions, reply to statements off the true topic at hand to avoid providing a real answer, and at the same time trying to make the people asking the questions wrong to discredit the validity of the topic.

[courantcom]

We post on forums because we still feel very deeply connected to the grassroots and the core fans and like to still be a fan even though we run the events. We do it because most times people just want to know certain things and ask in a manner conducive to a nice dialogue and conversation.

Well, maybe a lot of the grassroot fans all want to participate in your future events, and they need to know that they're not going to get jacked when they actually start competing at your events. Maybe they are all watching and reading what goes on right here, right now.

I am happy to answer questions, but often your tone, sarcasm and sometimes disrespect doesn't provide us with much of a reason to respond. That being said some issues can just clearly not be understood or be eloquently displayed in the proper context or tone in an online forum but we will do our best to do what you'd like.

I introduce valid points...each with adequate reason to have you respond to. I try to keep my posts as entertaining as possible, but yet still packed with information.

Those readings were taken after each successive head-to-head in the top 16 on "hot tires" by Doug Artus, our starter, a veteran of the sport. Not a volunteer. Volunteers have taken readings in the past so I see how you might be confused.

I know Doug. Doug was the one that gently nudged me awake on Thursday morning when he came up to my truck while I parked overnight at the front entrance to Road Atlanta. Let me tell you...Doug was the perfect person to be the first person I saw that morning...you know, his glasses and all. Anyways, as the cars came back from the course, Doug directed the cars and told them to stop when it was time. He parked the cars side by side and held them there while other people actually went behind each of the rear tires and did their thing and wrote it down on clip boards. Then, maybe, Doug radio'ed the information to the tower.

FD was started in August of 2003 which makes 5 years, 8 months old. That's pretty much 6 to me.

The "6 years" part was a touch of my natural sarcasm... ;-) It's like when people ask me "what's up?"....I say "the sky".

[Formula D]

When it comes down to your openly available rules, procedures, and practices...I'd like to discuss that here - in the open, where everyone can see. I'm not talking about issues pertaining to a single team/person here. Maybe I just pull up specific examples (teams) here and there just to clarify a situation. Overall, I'm just trying to understand the tire issue. Maybe after some public dialogue, everyone will understand your tire rules. It seems like it's an important thing to understand since cars can get completely disqualified because of it...instead of just being docked points and fines.

We post on forums because we still feel very deeply connected to the grassroots and the core fans and like to still be a fan even though we run the events. We do it because most times people just want to know certain things and ask in a manner conducive to a nice dialogue and conversation.

I am happy to answer questions, but often your tone, sarcasm and sometimes disrespect doesn't provide us with much of a reason to respond. That being said some issues can just clearly not be understood or be eloquently displayed in the proper context or tone in an online forum but we will do our best to do what you'd like.

The people who were actually doing the physical durometer testing were some of your local volunteers. FD wasn't even around six years ago, and I think I knew everyone in your office when it started up five years ago (Slipstream)

Those readings were taken after each successive head-to-head in the top 16 on "hot tires" by Doug Artus, our starter, a veteran of the sport. Not a volunteer. Volunteers have taken readings in the past so I see how you might be confused.

FD wasn't even around six years ago, and I think I knew everyone in your office when it started up five years ago (Slipstream)

FD was started in August of 2003 which makes 5 years, 8 months old. That's pretty much 6 to me.

[courantcom]

This thing is gonna be like last year's suspension debacle, isn't it...

Hopefully, this time around, since the issue deals with MORE competitors, MORE people will talk about it, and voice their opinions.

[courantcom]

Shouldnt anyone that came under the level loose their points for the event? I believe that is more then fair. Also, this sort of thing should continue in Jersey to make sure teams are following the rules established by FD.

When did Barry Bonds start drifting by the way?

According to the example they set with Pat Mordaunt, anyone with "soft tires" should have been disqualified all together. It's like being laid-off or fired. Losing all points would have been just like getting laid-off. Being fired is like saying, "pack up your things...you're done". Pat got fired...while other people equally guilty may have just been laid-off. If Pat got fired, everyone should have been fired.

I wanna know if Formula D will reveal a list of TIRES (not drivers or teams) that they approved in their "Appendix C - Approved Tires" that failed their durometer testing procedure at Road Atlanta. Assuming that everyone's tires were unaltered, let's start making some headway here in this discussion and start uncovering some answers.

According to their conclusion with Pat Mordaunt, Toyo R1-R should NOT be legal then, even though it was legal all of last year, and is on their current Appendix C list. Every team using R1-R should have been disqualified. Factory supported R1-R cars were both RWD Scions, the Hyundai (had R1-R on the fronts), and Bridges car (Takatori).

In addition...why did Formula D wait until Pat Mordaunt beat Joon Maeng in the top 16 to tell him he was DQ'ed? Why didn't they tell him he was disqualified as soon as he arrived at the event? It's like they were surprised he did so well...they gotta chop him down before he actually has a real chance of winning...OMG! Heaven forbid that a privateer win...

Pat Mordaunt is not a Toyo sponsored vehicle. Just pretend he read Appendix C, went to the store and actually bought R1-R's and put them on his car. He would have been in trouble if he had bought a few of the tires also on that Appendix C list as well...so how's a racer supposed to know? Go buy a tire, test them with their own durometer, and see if they pass? What's the point of Appendix C then if only a handful of the list of 19 tires actually exceed 49 on the gauge?

Formula D must think that they were the only ones at the event with durometers in their tool boxes. ;-) Let's just say that people kinda measured things here and there as well on their own...and the results were somewhat shocking at times.

[Mr.Two]

From what I have seen, there is PLENTY of rule breaking that goes on.
At round 1, a majority of the field should have been disqualified.

I know you guys want to make drifting more and more legitimate, so please consider enforcing ALL of the rules instead of some, sometimes.


You are on your way to doing very well (and you HAVE done very well already), but in MY opinion, set rules and follow them, or just don't make them in the first place.

Agreed.

When it comes down to your openly available rules, procedures, and practices...I'd like to discuss that here - in the open, where everyone can see. Overall, I'm just trying to understand the tire issue. Maybe after some public dialogue, everyone will understand your tire rules. It seems like it's an important thing to understand since cars can get completely disqualified because of it...instead of just being docked points and fines.

FD wasn't even around six years ago.

Agreed again. courantcom isn't the only person asking questions about Pat being DQ'd and exactly why so this is exactly the right forum to be having this discussion.

[Swing Kid]

We that would be true except the fact that both of those situations those tires that came in under the level both lost their run so it was moot.

Shouldnt anyone that came under the level loose their points for the event? I believe that is more then fair. Also, this sort of thing should continue in Jersey to make sure teams are following the rules established by FD.

When did Barry Bonds start drifting by the way?

[courantcom]

Victor, if you really have questions that you want answered, you should just call my office and I'd be happy to talk with you one on one. I'd love to have an open and honest dialogue with you in the right environment not one in which you say the following regarding a 6 year FD tech: "I can't imagine accurate enough readings were obtained from individuals who would have a hard time trying to spell the word "durometer".

I'll call your office if I have questions as to when load-in is, or when the race cars need to be there. I'll also call your office to find out who I need to rent the golf carts from, or where the host hotel is. I'll even call your office if someone approaches me wanting to setup a vendor booth or sponsor your events.

When it comes down to your openly available rules, procedures, and practices...I'd like to discuss that here - in the open, where everyone can see. I'm not talking about issues pertaining to a single team/person here. Maybe I just pull up specific examples (teams) here and there just to clarify a situation. Overall, I'm just trying to understand the tire issue. Maybe after some public dialogue, everyone will understand your tire rules. It seems like it's an important thing to understand since cars can get completely disqualified because of it...instead of just being docked points and fines.

The people who were actually doing the physical durometer testing were some of your local volunteers. FD wasn't even around six years ago, and I think I knew everyone in your office when it started up five years ago (Slipstream).