(FEEDBACK) FORMULA D ATLANTA May 8-9th 2009

[courantcom]

Just got done hearing the show. Great job Ryan.

Although I still want to know about my judges thing haha.

Here...I'll start talking about it. 3 judges, one does angle, and the other two does speed and line, right? There's more to it...but someone else can start talking.

[courantcom]

Victor mentioned that doing something like this could take something like 3 hours for drifting, so it might be a little too much man power.

If each team had 12 tires each, and testing can be done in 10 seconds per tire, including "seal". That's 120 seconds per team - Two minutes. Let's just calculate in 5 minutes per team. That should include travel time from truck to truck, and to answer some basic GED questions while each staffer is at each team's paddock - like "what kind of ink is in that seal". 40 teams? 200 minutes - 3 hours, 20 minutes.

I think I know where Formula Drift was trying to go with the rule, but it seems they just failed in the execution of it. It seems they were trying to keep special "cheater" tires from coming into the mix. Obviously most peoples tires are supplied directly off the tire manufacturers trucks , and if a "special" compound tire was supplied to one or more competitors, it would be difficult to police.

Who durometer tests tires hot ? Specific series, and rulebook link if possible ? I posted the link about some sprint cars waiting "at least 15 minutes" for the tires to cool.

The tires on Pats car were year old Toyo R1R, 140 treadwear street tires, on the list of approved tires. Anyone in racing knows that the older the tire is, the harder it gets. It does not improve with age. If anything is wrong with them, I would put it more on the tire manufacturer than on the individual competitor. Should Toyo have been warned for supplying too soft a tire ?

Dang...Toyo's, like a good wine, must get better with age. I'm going to buy a set of R1-R's now, and let them sit on my disorganized garage floor. Maybe 2 years from now, they will be "softer" than R888! Hahaha....someone in this thread mentioned that a "softer tire" doesn't necessarily mean a "grippier" tire. I think that's true. Specially made rock crawling tires are super duper soft so that the rubber in the tires can squish between cracks in rocks and in whatever they are trying to cross over. I'm going to go out on a limb here and just say that those tires can not yield the same "grip" as an R1-R. What's everyone think about that? Do softer tires always mean grippier tires?

[rtype16]

Just got done hearing the show. Great job Ryan.

Although I still want to know about my judges thing haha.

[INFO]

yeah, drifting.com

Formula D has an "ASK ME THREAD"

[Brian]

Is there a suggestion box or any other way to bring up suggestions to Formula D?

yeah, drifting.com

[vvtisupra]

This is a good point. I had the idea that the judges should be split up and placed into different towers at different vantage points and then judge individually. Not saying that the judges influence anothers score, but i think different vantage points will give an overall better oversight as far as scoring.

Is there a suggestion box or any other way to bring up suggestions to Formula D?

On another note... Are the judges still talking to each other after a run? In every form of a judged event the judges never talk to each other during the judging process. They need to make decisions on their own without any bias from outside sources. Hell why do you think they have so many damn judges in somethin like figure skating usually throwing out the top two and bottom two scores. You dont see japan leaning over to Russia and that guy leaning over to europe saying hey how are you going to judge them. Just something I have been saying for a while. Scores and the one more time needs to be judged before the judges can talk to anyone.

[tyndago]

s with car and driver. Every team that was competing had to purchase the tires from Tire Rack. Each tire was than branded so that tires that were purchased were tires they had to use at the event.

Victor - courantcom - already mentioned this. In World Challenge we had to purchase the tires - Toyo RA1's from one vendor to use them in a race. The actual tires that you were going to use to qualify, and then race on were marked by the officials prior to qualifying. Now obviously for something like drifting, where you could go though several sets of tires, it might not be a realistic thing to do or expect.

Victor mentioned that doing something like this could take something like 3 hours for drifting, so it might be a little too much man power.

I think I know where Formula Drift was trying to go with the rule, but it seems they just failed in the execution of it. It seems they were trying to keep special "cheater" tires from coming into the mix. Obviously most peoples tires are supplied directly off the tire manufacturers trucks , and if a "special" compound tire was supplied to one or more competitors, it would be difficult to police.

Who durometer tests tires hot ? Specific series, and rulebook link if possible ? I posted the link about some sprint cars waiting "at least 15 minutes" for the tires to cool.

The tires on Pats car were year old Toyo R1R, 140 treadwear street tires, on the list of approved tires. Anyone in racing knows that the older the tire is, the harder it gets. It does not improve with age. If anything is wrong with them, I would put it more on the tire manufacturer than on the individual competitor. Should Toyo have been warned for supplying too soft a tire ?

[rtype16]

In terms of purchasing tires something I just read from courantcom when we were involved in shootouts with car and driver. Every team that was competing had to purchase the tires from Tire Rack. Each tire was than branded so that tires that were purchased were tires they had to use at the event. Now I am not saying that this should happen just this particular rule can go in many different ways.

[rtype16]

Yes we all agree that some rules need to be looked at, but until something like this happens than there really isnt anything anyone can do til a incident occurs or speak up before hand.

As in terms of the tire rule. Every sanctioning body has rules. In some sports yes they do actually test when the tire is hot and it cannot fall below a number. There are also some that allow a cooling period before the tire is tested usually at least 15min after a race. Some check all tires before a race and get a seal. Some races only the manufacturer of the tires are allowed to bring the tires and they supply them to the racers before the event. Usually at random so that no one can have a biased tire.

Okay we all know Pat is a good kid, but there are tons of people out there that will still cheat. I am in no way saying Pat was cheating. But you cant just say oh he is a stand up guy and he wouldnt cheat you have to somehow take that out of the equation so that it can be without a doubt a fair rule.

People get caught all the time in racing and sometimes its people you would never consider are cheating. As they say in most racing everyone is cheating they just haven't got caught yet.

On another note... Are the judges still talking to each other after a run? In every form of a judged event the judges never talk to each other during the judging process. They need to make decisions on their own without any bias from outside sources. Hell why do you think they have so many damn judges in somethin like figure skating usually throwing out the top two and bottom two scores. You dont see japan leaning over to Russia and that guy leaning over to europe saying hey how are you going to judge them. Just something I have been saying for a while. Scores and the one more time needs to be judged before the judges can talk to anyone.

[courantcom]

Haven't heard the show yet but your post makes me want to ask 2 questions:

1.) Even if Pat gets the points he EARNED back, how will FD remedy the fact that Pat could have EARNED even more points? I wasn't there but sounds like he was on a run for the top when he was DQ'd. I think Victor would agree here...but ideally, with other tires failing to meet this rule at LB and again at ATL, they should have let him finish the event and review the rule afterwards. Unfortunately, they pulled him before he lost, so now...how do they decide how many points to award him? (though I definatly agree his entry fees and travel expenses should be covered by FD at the very least...to spend that much money, time and effort only to be DQ'd by such a poorly designed rule, have questions of "cheating" and such go around when nothing of the like took place...I can only imagine what a lawyer could do with this)

Yes, I do agree. Pat could have advanced further past top 8. He could have had some prize money as well. We will now never know since that exact circumstance is not repeatable.

Asking the sanctioning body to pay for "travel expenses" may already be somewhat unreasonable to outright ask for. If they offered it...then that's different, but even that can just lead to several unforeseen expenses. I do feel that they owe him an entry into the next round. With the price of an entry, Pat can use the money for other things that entail to travel expenses -- such as a hotel stay, or a rental car, or race gas, etc.

A lawyer won't be able to do much. Let me reference the Formula D rulebook:

1.3 ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF RULES
Every person, entity, group of persons, regional affiliate, or organizer who seeks approvals for, and is granted the right to participate or conduct a FORMULA DRIFT EVENT, and any person who receives a FORMULA DRIFT license, warrants that:
• He/She is acquainted with the series rules.
• He/She agrees without reservation to abide by the series rules.
• He/She renounces the right to have legal recourse, except with the written consent of FORMULA DRIFT, to any arbitrator, or tribunal, not provided for in the rules.

The costs to pay a lawyer that can figure out a way around all this and do all kinds of monetary damage should drastically outweigh whatever kind of settlement you think you can get. The juice won't be worth the squeeze.

2.) Once again, I did not listen to the show yet but I don't understand why FD would be asking tire manufacturers to "help out" when it's FD's rule, developed by FD's testing procedures. How can tire manufacturers help out when their unmodified tires that are approved by FD, cannot meet the requirements of a recently added rule that is proving to be impossible to enforce?

Yeah...what's to stop the manufacturer from helping out with a special batch of tires to conform to FD's testing, right? Even though the tire manufacturers may just see "drifting" as "whatever..." in comparison to their other motorsport investments, and they won't spend that much time making such a batch of special tires, they still could do it.

Formula D should actually go and buy the tires as if they were a regular retail customer, and test whatever they buy -- like Consumer Reports. They shouldn't have to ask the tire manufacturer, or featured racer where to buy it. They should just be able to go to a tire store that sells whatever brand they are looking for and buy it outright. With that practice, they can also see if whatever tire is actually readily available to the general public, as their rulebook mandates.

[courantcom]

At least FD is willing to accomodate necessary changes and/or adjustments for the best interest of their sport.

They are going to have to. I, along with mostly everyone, will agree that "drifting" with any kind of "real rulebook" is still under development. Because of how long "racing" and "rulebooks" have been around, I may not agree with how much time it has taken to get it mostly right, but I also believe that everyone needs to understand what this development process means and what role each entity must play within it.

The sanctioning body needs to acknowledge that everything they do can and will be put under a magnifying glass. In my opinion, the more "closed door meetings" Formula D has, the more skepticism the general public will have about their sanctioning body. Future competitors will come from the general public whether they see it that way or not. The actions of a sanctioning body will need to be more well thought out because of what role they need to play.

I can say more about what everyone's roles are...but it'll end up being a very, yet again, long post. =)

[APACHE-R]

I caught most of the show. Ryan address most of the points and Pat will get his points back. He has asked the tire companies to help out with the inconstanst reading of tires and will have a patch in place for NJ. He is aware of all of the problems and working on them. I thought he did very good job addressing everthing and explaining what happen and why....

Haven't heard the show yet but your post makes me want to ask 2 questions:

1.) Even if Pat gets the points he EARNED back, how will FD remedy the fact that Pat could have EARNED even more points? I wasn't there but sounds like he was on a run for the top when he was DQ'd. I think Victor would agree here...but ideally, with other tires failing to meet this rule at LB and again at ATL, they should have let him finish the event and review the rule afterwards. Unfortunately, they pulled him before he lost, so now...how do they decide how many points to award him? (though I definatly agree his entry fees and travel expenses should be covered by FD at the very least...to spend that much money, time and effort only to be DQ'd by such a poorly designed rule, have questions of "cheating" and such go around when nothing of the like took place...I can only imagine what a lawyer could do with this)

2.) Once again, I did not listen to the show yet but I don't understand why FD would be asking tire manufacturers to "help out" when it's FD's rule, developed by FD's testing procedures. How can tire manufacturers help out when their unmodified tires that are approved by FD, cannot meet the requirements of a recently added rule that is proving to be impossible to enforce?

[tyndago]

At least FD is willing to accomodate necessary changes and/or adjustments for the best interest of their sport.

The sanctioning body HAS to listen to the competitors. If there were no competitors, there would be no sanctioning body. You can never make all of the people happy all of the time, but you can make most of the people happy most of the time. There is going to be some kind of balance.

You just have to look at F1 this year, to know that competitors not being happy can dramatically change the goings on . 2010 might be a very different year for F1.

[OldSkool510]

At least FD is willing to accomodate necessary changes and/or adjustments for the best interest of their sport.

[courantcom]

Like I said before, FD's rule book will continue to be challenged. Incidences such as "Tiregate" will expose all the gray areas sooner or later. At least FD is willing to acknowledge the flaws and make modifications as they see fit for the betterment of the sport. Good job FD.

I know I am opening up a can of worms for "courantcom" to exploit with regards to last year's incident. So please please please don't "courantcom."

;-) Rule books in any arena will always continue to be challenged. In all honesty, I sorta adds to the "fun" of it all".