(FEEDBACK) FORMULA D ATLANTA May 8-9th 2009

[courantcom]

Since you're repping for FD, does telling him to have "patience" mean that this issue is still in the resolution process? So that means it's still possible for Pat to get his points back and/or the other teams in violation to be deducted points, right?

That's why I couldn't understand that comment about the losers in violation to be a "moot" point. Win or lose, they were still in violation of the rules and should be reprimanded accordingly.

I'm certain that the issue with Pat is still in the resolution process since I haven't really heard anything from anyone. As with other teams also with tire issues...I'm not certain as far as what's going on behind their closed doors.

With their "moot point" statement, I believe that they are just going to let that be since they "lost" anyways. I do, however, agree that win or lose, they were still in violation of the rules and should be reprimanded accordingly. All I can do is wait and see if they will exercise the same type of discipline to those two teams as they did with Pat.

[tyndago]

That's why I couldn't understand that comment about the losers in violation to be a "moot" point. Win or lose, they were still in violation of the rules and should be reprimanded accordingly.

That is interesting isn't it. Other tires tested soft, but they lost, so...oh well....nothing gained...nothing hurt.

Wrong attitude.

[OldSkool510]

Victor, much respect for your passion, interest and intent yet have SOME patience, you DON'T know ALL bottomeline...

Since you're repping for FD, does telling him to have "patience" mean that this issue is still in the resolution process? So that means it's still possible for Pat to get his points back and/or the other teams in violation to be deducted points, right?

That's why I couldn't understand that comment about the losers in violation to be a "moot" point. Win or lose, they were still in violation of the rules and should be reprimanded accordingly.

[courantcom]

formula D: selective priviledges and punishments.

testing tires hot is like using a voltage tester on a battery when the car is running and saying there must be something wrong because it puts out more than 12V.

Eh...there's more to that. Certain tires MAY get "softer" than others when hotter. I'm supposing it all depends on how the rubber is. I can imagine a Toyo RA-1 (R-Compound) to get much softer than my truck tires. Like say, for every 5 degrees of increased temperature, EXAMPLE okay, my truck tires go down 1 point from where it starts off cold. At 100 degrees hotter my truck tires are only going to get 20 points softer. Now take the RA-1. Let's say that tire gets 2 points softer for every 5 degrees of increased temperature from where it starts off cold. So...for 100 degrees on an RA-1, it'll get 40 points softer. I can see that happening.

Perhaps that was what Formula D was trying to combat against, but either way...there's too many variables with how that needs to get tested. If that's what they want to combat against, then the rule needs to be written to accommodate it. "Tires can be no softer than 49 between 70-77 degrees, and 40 between 150-200 degrees".

Either way, I still think the rule needs to be fixed because it disqualified a legitimate competitor that was using a tire listed in Appendix C and was not cheating. Rule enforcement didn't work because Pat wasn't pre-approved. ;-)

[courantcom]

If Formula Drift invited you to a drivers/team/staff forum, why would they invite you?
You're not any of those...
I think you have some valid points but even after our personal discussion for 1.5 hours and saying that you have some valid points and you even saying "tone it down" you're ranting on here like a crazed x-girlfriend.

I did tone it down. I didn't ask to be invited, nor did I assume I would be to any such forum. I just merely suggested that ONE exist. With forums like this one, a lot of "drivers" and/or "team owners" and/or "managers" aren't going to post on here because it's -- public. For their level of professionalism, I respect that.

Victor, much respect for your passion, interest and intent yet have SOME patience, you DON'T know ALL bottomeline...

I know more than what you think...and I'm not going to play that game with you. After our phone conversation, I confirmed my source - directly.

Se you in Jersey and I hope you have a smile on your face like you normally do with your terrible tacky saying t-shirts, haha or sweaty in your Sparco suit ready to Camel Tow....
Peace and love,

I'm already in Jersey! I'm all smiles...and my tacky saying t-shirts are some of the love that people give me. Just like you, I have a closet full of "free t-shirts". People like it when I'm all sweaty... ;-)

[LV240s14]

FD should of docked points and /or money if a rule was broken. Not pull him out in the middle of the comp.

FD needs to get some better rules instead of having rules that can be so wishy washy like if the tire is hotter than other tires it tests lower than normal. The tires should be tested all the same for the test to be legit.

Victor has made ALOT OF GOOD POINTS

I love drifting and want FD to be a great series but when i see this kind of crap it really takes the fun out of FD.

[Coiloverkid]

formula D: selective priviledges and punishments.

testing tires hot is like using a voltage tester on a battery when the car is running and saying there must be something wrong because it puts out more than 12V.

[CamelTouge]

new rule: it should be the responsibility of the teams crew chief, tech, mechanic, or whomever on the team to thoroughly go throw the rulebook and abide by it.

if this durometer testing is such a big issue, why havent ANY of the teams bitched about it pre-season!? Most of the cars out there are new builds, or had to be adjusted to meet the new guidelines, why isnt the techs or crew chiefs complaining about this before atlanta?

my point is.. it is unfortunate that pat got screwed. I know pat as a person, and hes not going to manipulate his tires or whatever the case is. Tire manufacturers fault? possibly. But if this is common knowledge that the tire wont meet the durometer requirements on any brand (when its tested HOT), then someone should've said something beforehand.

This goes for all the rules in that rulebook. If you see a discrepancy, then acknowledge it before an incident occurs.

[J-Rod]

I know about that forum. Wanna invite me? Honestly, even though I suggested that "drifting.com" do it, but one that's actually by the "sanctioning body" would be appropriate...because then, if the actual sanctioning body wants to delete something that they really feel is out of line, then they can -- quietly.

If Formula Drift invited you to a drivers/team/staff forum, why would they invite you?
You're not any of those...
I think you have some valid points but even after our personal discussion for 1.5 hours and saying that you have some valid points and you even saying "tone it down" you're ranting on here like a crazed x-girlfriend.

Victor, much respect for your passion, interest and intent yet have SOME patience, you DON'T know ALL bottomeline...

Se you in Jersey and I hope you have a smile on your face like you normally do with your terrible tacky saying t-shirts, haha or sweaty in your Sparco suit ready to Camel Tow....
Peace and love,

[fast-datsun]

I agree with you... but to get testing done correctly EVER production run will have to be tested because ALL tire people know that there are slight differances in tire production runs. Pro race teams some times go throught testing of hundreds of tires to get one race week-ends worth of spec tires. I feel that holding a race team or driver responsible for tire HARDNESS is un fair as they have no control over it, UNLESS there are tampering with the tires, which would not make sense in drifting as they do not last that long. This seen like a no win situation for indenpendant teams as they get what there given..Full ride tire sponsored teams can pick out what they need... IF you going to have tire on FD approve list the Tire Sponsor have to help make sure tires are 100% legal as they have the control over them.

[courantcom]

I have a Question. Since Teams and Driver have nothing to do with how hard or soft a tire is, and if the tire is on the approved list is FD going to remove the tire from the list or Fine the manufacure for providing Illegal tires to the teams? The manfacture is the only one who controls the tire hardness??????????????????????????????????? Soaking tires common in Stock car racing will on last a few seconds in drifting and not affect the hardness...after that...

The tires that appear on the Appendix C list were supposedly tested by Formula D at a prior date. Samples were sent to their office for the purpose of their inspection. I'm not along the position that someone was trying to cheat. I'm on the position that the testing procedure was wrong and that there were too many variables that can affect the overall durometer reading during the circumstances and atmosphere the measurements were taken.

[courantcom]

I've got a suggestion,

The tires are probably still on Pat's car. Simply take a cold test and see what the reading is. Maybe Victor can send them out to get tested by the different people he has talked to.

As much as I'd love to do that...even take a video of me doing the whole thing, you and I already know that it won't matter because Formula D tested the tire when it's hot. Their rule says that the tires can be measured at any time during the event, hot or cold. Someone else posted it here already, but I do believe that it's hard for any "high performance" street tire to test harder than 49 "hot" on a durometer. If it's not possible for any high performance street tire to do that "hot", then maybe the rule needs to be changed. It's one of the things I've been suggesting. The rule needs to be changed.

Its not going to change what happened at ATL, but maybe it will help Pat get his points back. I dont think it was fair that only Pat lost his points when other teams obviously were lower then thier rule stated and tested at the same time. In order for FD to be fair about it, kinda seems like ether they need to take away the points from those other teams or give Pat's points back.

What happened in ATL already happened in ATL. I'm glad you agree that it wasn't fair. Would you agree that "disqualification" should only be reserved for very serious infractions? ...say, for example, if Pat were to be using tires that were NOT on the Appendix C list?

I'm not alone with my thoughts here...but people have suggested that you should be the Chief Steward. ;-)

[courantcom]

a private drivers forum was started back in 2005

I know about that forum. Wanna invite me? Honestly, even though I suggested that "drifting.com" do it, but one that's actually by the "sanctioning body" would be appropriate...because then, if the actual sanctioning body wants to delete something that they really feel is out of line, then they can -- quietly.

[fast-datsun]

I have a Question. Since Teams and Driver have nothing to do with how hard or soft a tire is, and if the tire is on the approved list is FD going to remove the tire from the list or Fine the manufacure for providing Illegal tires to the teams? The manfacture is the only one who controls the tire hardness??????????????????????????????????? Soaking tires common in Stock car racing will on last a few seconds in drifting and not affect the hardness...after that...

[AlexPfeiffer]

I've got a suggestion,

The tires are probably still on Pat's car. Simply take a cold test and see what the reading is. Maybe Victor can send them out to get tested by the different people he has talked to. Its not going to change what happened at ATL, but maybe it will help Pat get his points back. I dont think it was fair that only Pat lost his points when other teams obviously were lower then thier rule stated and tested at the same time. In order for FD to be fair about it, kinda seems like ether they need to take away the points from those other teams or give Pat's points back.