(FEEDBACK) FORMULA D ATLANTA May 8-9th 2009

[LV240s14]

FD should of docked points and /or money if a rule was broken. Not pull him out in the middle of the comp.

FD needs to get some better rules instead of having rules that can be so wishy washy like if the tire is hotter than other tires it tests lower than normal. The tires should be tested all the same for the test to be legit.

Victor has made ALOT OF GOOD POINTS

I love drifting and want FD to be a great series but when i see this kind of crap it really takes the fun out of FD.

[courantcom]

If Formula Drift invited you to a drivers/team/staff forum, why would they invite you?
You're not any of those...
I think you have some valid points but even after our personal discussion for 1.5 hours and saying that you have some valid points and you even saying "tone it down" you're ranting on here like a crazed x-girlfriend.

I did tone it down. I didn't ask to be invited, nor did I assume I would be to any such forum. I just merely suggested that ONE exist. With forums like this one, a lot of "drivers" and/or "team owners" and/or "managers" aren't going to post on here because it's -- public. For their level of professionalism, I respect that.

Victor, much respect for your passion, interest and intent yet have SOME patience, you DON'T know ALL bottomeline...

I know more than what you think...and I'm not going to play that game with you. After our phone conversation, I confirmed my source - directly.

Se you in Jersey and I hope you have a smile on your face like you normally do with your terrible tacky saying t-shirts, haha or sweaty in your Sparco suit ready to Camel Tow....
Peace and love,

I'm already in Jersey! I'm all smiles...and my tacky saying t-shirts are some of the love that people give me. Just like you, I have a closet full of "free t-shirts". People like it when I'm all sweaty... ;-)

[courantcom]

formula D: selective priviledges and punishments.

testing tires hot is like using a voltage tester on a battery when the car is running and saying there must be something wrong because it puts out more than 12V.

Eh...there's more to that. Certain tires MAY get "softer" than others when hotter. I'm supposing it all depends on how the rubber is. I can imagine a Toyo RA-1 (R-Compound) to get much softer than my truck tires. Like say, for every 5 degrees of increased temperature, EXAMPLE okay, my truck tires go down 1 point from where it starts off cold. At 100 degrees hotter my truck tires are only going to get 20 points softer. Now take the RA-1. Let's say that tire gets 2 points softer for every 5 degrees of increased temperature from where it starts off cold. So...for 100 degrees on an RA-1, it'll get 40 points softer. I can see that happening.

Perhaps that was what Formula D was trying to combat against, but either way...there's too many variables with how that needs to get tested. If that's what they want to combat against, then the rule needs to be written to accommodate it. "Tires can be no softer than 49 between 70-77 degrees, and 40 between 150-200 degrees".

Either way, I still think the rule needs to be fixed because it disqualified a legitimate competitor that was using a tire listed in Appendix C and was not cheating. Rule enforcement didn't work because Pat wasn't pre-approved. ;-)

[OldSkool510]

Victor, much respect for your passion, interest and intent yet have SOME patience, you DON'T know ALL bottomeline...

Since you're repping for FD, does telling him to have "patience" mean that this issue is still in the resolution process? So that means it's still possible for Pat to get his points back and/or the other teams in violation to be deducted points, right?

That's why I couldn't understand that comment about the losers in violation to be a "moot" point. Win or lose, they were still in violation of the rules and should be reprimanded accordingly.

[tyndago]

That's why I couldn't understand that comment about the losers in violation to be a "moot" point. Win or lose, they were still in violation of the rules and should be reprimanded accordingly.

That is interesting isn't it. Other tires tested soft, but they lost, so...oh well....nothing gained...nothing hurt.

Wrong attitude.

[courantcom]

Since you're repping for FD, does telling him to have "patience" mean that this issue is still in the resolution process? So that means it's still possible for Pat to get his points back and/or the other teams in violation to be deducted points, right?

That's why I couldn't understand that comment about the losers in violation to be a "moot" point. Win or lose, they were still in violation of the rules and should be reprimanded accordingly.

I'm certain that the issue with Pat is still in the resolution process since I haven't really heard anything from anyone. As with other teams also with tire issues...I'm not certain as far as what's going on behind their closed doors.

With their "moot point" statement, I believe that they are just going to let that be since they "lost" anyways. I do, however, agree that win or lose, they were still in violation of the rules and should be reprimanded accordingly. All I can do is wait and see if they will exercise the same type of discipline to those two teams as they did with Pat.

[APACHE-R]

new rule: it should be the responsibility of the teams crew chief, tech, mechanic, or whomever on the team to thoroughly go throw the rulebook and abide by it.

if this durometer testing is such a big issue, why havent ANY of the teams bitched about it pre-season!? Most of the cars out there are new builds, or had to be adjusted to meet the new guidelines, why isnt the techs or crew chiefs complaining about this before atlanta?

my point is.. it is unfortunate that pat got screwed. I know pat as a person, and hes not going to manipulate his tires or whatever the case is. Tire manufacturers fault? possibly. But if this is common knowledge that the tire wont meet the durometer requirements on any brand (when its tested HOT), then someone should've said something beforehand.

This goes for all the rules in that rulebook. If you see a discrepancy, then acknowledge it before an incident occurs.

It's not just a discrepancy with the rule, it's how they're testing...they have already admitted their testing this year is giving them inconsistant results when compared to the last two years...how can that be explained? How can the rule possibly remain? It shouldn't, but that's beside your point....Just because it wasn't posted on here or made public doesn't mean there weren't complaints beforehand. You definatly can't assume that.

[tyndago]

Heres some photos of durometer testing from Atlanta. http://tunericons.com/mod_articles/a...&article_id=57

I don't know what the starter - Doug is it ? Looks like. Is that him doing testing ?

[Justin Banner]

blantant self promotion 2

I'm going to be discussing the tire controversy and the weekend as a whole. Listen to 1340whap.com at 6pm EST (the topic will go from 6pm-6:30 and is an 1.5 hour show tonight) and call 804 452-4999 to voice your opinion!

[wrxwagon]

My opinion is that the rule should be removed for the rest of the year for further evaluation. So that the test procedures are validated and reproducible, this would also confirm and validate the acceptable durometer reading. An annual validation should be performed on approved tires for the series. Meaning Tire companies must submit a tire each year. Even if the tire is still being used in the series, the lot /batch will need to be tested. Once the test procedure approved and validated. Formula D should hold tech day/video to show how the durometer test will be performed, so that all the teams can perform the test the same way.

In Pat’s case: He should be awarded his points back and reimbursed all his fees for the Atlanta event.

[Slapshotnerd]

Heres some photos of durometer testing from Atlanta. http://tunericons.com/mod_articles/a...&article_id=57

I don't know what the starter - Doug is it ? Looks like. Is that him doing testing ?

Those pics were from Friday's qualifying session. Seems like the test in question was during Saturday's top 16 runs, which may have had a different person administering the test / different procedure.

[tyndago]

On something as important as this testing is, wouldn't you want some consistency in the results ?

Its serious enough to get someone disqualified, I would want to see the same guys running the test though out the event.

I think a durometer test is something that can be done incorrectly, so it seems to need someone skilled enough at reading the gage, and preforming the test. The expensive gages have a tolerance of +/- 1 number. I wonder on the gages that Formula Drift was using, what the actual tolerance of the gage was. I wonder when the last time their gage was calibrated vs a standard. I wonder if the gage was dropped at all during the course of the event. I did gage calibration for 4 years, and you might be surprised what might be considered tolerable on a non critical gage.

[courantcom]

On something as important as this testing is, wouldn't you want some consistency in the results ?

Its serious enough to get someone disqualified, I would want to see the same guys running the test though out the event.

I think a durometer test is something that can be done incorrectly, so it seems to need someone skilled enough at reading the gage, and preforming the test. The expensive gages have a tolerance of +/- 1 number. I wonder on the gages that Formula Drift was using, what the actual tolerance of the gage was. I wonder when the last time their gage was calibrated vs a standard. I wonder if the gage was dropped at all during the course of the event. I did gage calibration for 4 years, and you might be surprised what might be considered tolerable on a non critical gage.

I also think a durometer test is something that can be done incorrectly. It's not exactly a tire pressure gauge. The "expensive gauges" also come with a standard - a piece of material that you can test the gauge on to see if it's still holding it's accuracy.

For something that important (...failure means immediate disqualification), I think the gauge needs to be constantly measured against the standard and that a log book needs to be kept to record when the standard was tested, temperature, person/operator, etc.

[courantcom]

My opinion is that the rule should be removed for the rest of the year for further evaluation. So that the test procedures are validated and reproducible, this would also confirm and validate the acceptable durometer reading. An annual validation should be performed on approved tires for the series. Meaning Tire companies must submit a tire each year. Even if the tire is still being used in the series, the lot /batch will need to be tested. Once the test procedure approved and validated. Formula D should hold tech day/video to show how the durometer test will be performed, so that all the teams can perform the test the same way.

In Pat’s case: He should be awarded his points back and reimbursed all his fees for the Atlanta event.

You're suggesting that certain rules need to be removed until the end of the year? I'm all FOR that! Oh wait...I tried to suggest that LAST year when the front suspension on SA-Drift's R34 (Takatori) car was under attack. Everyone knows how all that went down. It's easy to recap though...basically SA Drift still had to change the front suspension over...but nobody else had to change their suspension setups.

Maybe this time around, it's a more serious subject because Pat got disqualified. Takatori wasn't disqualified. ...just fines and point deductions.

I like your suggestions...all of them. I think everyone will like it too...

[courantcom]

Those pics were from Friday's qualifying session. Seems like the test in question was during Saturday's top 16 runs, which may have had a different person administering the test / different procedure.

Well, according to Formula D, it was Doug doing ALL the testing... Maybe this is what Doug looks like without his sunglasses? =)