Why on Earth a VIPER?

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by ToplessFC3Sman
A car as big as the viper, if it gets the support dodge is hoping for, will be a shove away from smaller, twisty tracks towards big ovals. Thats the opposite direction Id like to see drifting to go, but if its what the market demands, then its whats gonna happen.

I have to agree, mopar will have alot of money wrapped into this. I am alittle afraid that they will push it into more of the oval stuff. The big long tracks are fine if there only a part of it. But lets look at Nascar, do they even run road courses any more? and tri-ovals dont count.



The thing about the D1 cars costing so much to build. Perhaps, they are expensive to build pro level cars. but the difference between starting with a S13 for a few grand a 80 thousand dollar viper is massive. Even a S15 in japan will only go for about 20 grand, practicly brand new.

As for the D1 cars being suposively so incredably built they arent hardly street cars anymore. Thats a load of bull. I will tell you right now. Perhaps a few of the cars are indeed out there. I had a chance to see three drift cars up close at super auto bacs, including the Revolver 86, The thing that surprised me was how stock these cars are. How real they are. Sure the interior is stripped, but hell the S13 and S15 i saw both had the door panels on, and the original dash. The 180sx i saw was basicly the same car i had sitting out in the parking lot. stripped interior, built motor and suspension, and a role cage but it was so real. I couldnt say that about any other race car i've ever seen up close. most of which were forms of stock cars.

When i heard what all they did to the GTO is was abit shocked, they even changed the position of the steerng wheel and stripped that thing to the bone. I cant say if they do or dont do similar things to some of the pro D1 cars, Driftxtream could enlighten us on this.

I wasnt imagining a tube frame carbon fiber 800 horse power monster, but i can see that happening, especialy if mopar doesnt win there first drift even. imagine this if you will CEO of dodge or whoever "Okay we spent 200,000 dollars on this drifting thing.. what did we place like first or second or something? what? 16th?? i for 200,000 dollars i want a win!"

Notice the most popular cars for drifting arent 80 thousand dollar NSXs or expensive skylines or ferraris or anything. There S15s for the newer cars, and S13s for the older cars. and of course theres the FDs and FCs as well. These are cars any of us can own. actualy most of us do own them.

Anyone go to the d1 and see the guy in that daihatsu? he wasnt even sponsored! he did a good job too! great fun to watch.

I dont care if its the japanese or the americans pushing drifting in "this direction" but im not a big fan of this direction if it means a competitive drift car cost 200,000 dollars.

Also i have to agree with some of the guys, im not a huge fan of the manufacturer sponsorships, im not as against it as some of the guys, but im not a huge fan. Besides if they want to be known for drifting they can just do what nissan did. Build alot of inexpensive rear wheel drive sports cars. Hell at the D1 7 of the top 8 cars were S15s, Nissan S15s.. you have any idea what kind of advertising that is for nissan? and they didnt spend a dime. anyways thats not the point really.

this is going to be my quote of the day....

I guess the point is this. <b>The viper is basicly a super car, Drifting isnt about super cars. </b>Its about Sports Cars. A sports car is defined in my book as affordable.

[CrazyHawaiian]

Hmmm I don't think the Viper has many advantages over any other type of car used in the D1, and I dont think it will change drifting in any way. Sure it comes with 500hp stock, and it costs $80k but so what. If we are talking the D1 here, what comes stock and how much it costs does not really matter. How much you think Pontiac invested into that GTO? There are NO completely factory stock cars that I know of competing in the D1. Every car is highly modified and all those mods add up. I would not be supprised if a lot of the highly modded D1 cars have $80k invested, and I would not be supprised if a lot of the highly modded D1 cars have the capabilities of producing more power than that Viper (but maybe they dont because they want a smooth powerband). I can understand what you mean about the initial cost of the Viper making it impossible for anyone at the grass roots level to give it a try, but when compared to the D1 level, the Viper will fit right in. The only advantage of the Viper that I can think of is that its big displacement N/A meaning the powerband is a lot smoother than FI, and because its big displacement it can produce just as much power as the FI setups. Other than that, the V10 has got to be a very heavy engine when compared to some of the Japan powerhouse motors (SR's, RB's, 2JZ's, 13B's) and that is definately a disadvantage when it comes to drifting. Like others have said, drifting is about balance and weight, not power. So I would be more concerned with weight reduction and obtaining a 50 /50 weight distribution than modifying the engine. The Viper does come with some huge rear tires stock, but thats because it also comes with over 500 ft/lbs of torque stock and its sold to the general public. If the tires were smaller, people would not be able to stay on the road (its for safety). But I'm sure when the Viper is prepped for D1 drifting they will change the tire setup (both front and rear) to make the car easier to drift. I believe this is done to every D1 car out there as well (no D1 cars drift on OEM wheel/tire setups). I also doubt the Viper will make any impact on the D1 rules. Maybe if the USA cars started winning all the comps right away, then yeah they might look over the rules again. But honestly I dont see the Viper (or the GTO) winning any D1's right away (factory sponsorship or not) because they are simply too new to the sport. Everyone needs time to set their car up right and fine tune it, and the Japan pro's have a huge advantage in that respect because they have already been drifting for so long, and on so many different types of tracks / roads. And yes, I hope they do bring Lambo's, Porsche, and Ferrari's to D1. It would be nice to have an assortment of all the different types of cars, Japanese, European, and Domestic.

I gotta say something else too. Hating on someone because of who they are sponsored by is WEAK. Sorry, I dont care who you are, or who the sponsor is, thats a really ignorant reason to hate on anyone.

[nissanguy_24]

CrazyHawaiian posted right after me, but reminded me of a few things i forgot to say.

In some ways im not worried that it will "change drifting", i mean i do fear that, but i dont think it will be easy to go in that direction. Its more of a fear, about what if.

Even if drifting becomes more of the huge power super car thing. I wont follow that trend.. cant afford, besides its not my style. I love the S13 because it fits my style.. well modified it can be my style. Drifting isnt about power, like has been said. It is about skill, Especialy tight technical courses.

Anyways, the question wasnt exactly what it seemed, i didnt mean "why did mopar choose the viper instead of one of there other great cars" i understand they dont have too many rwd performance cars in there lineup.. the neon is cool, but wrong drive train for a pro car. Though the crossfire would be a cool idea, still expensive, and probably heavier then they look, but more in the drift style then the viper.

I am really stoked though about the Kappa platform cars, i think this will help show what drifting is really about, inexpensive rear drive performance cars.

Anyways it will be cool to see a Silvia beat a Viper... I guess its not as bad as i originally thought, those S15s are a hell of a car, especialy modified in the D1 style. Of course the viper will have advantages, but like i said i never doubted its performance capabilities. Perhaps im alittle upset because it seems unfair to pitch a inexpensive car like our S chassis or Sevens. But dispite all of that it will just mean 'us' (meaning nissan fans for example) will have to improve our skills even more. Lets hope they choose that route instead of the whole tube frame thing.

I guess the future of drifting is really us, Drifters, and Drifting fans, it will be what we make it, Perhaps this post was originaly posted in dispair over the idea of vipers and other high dollar cars going into drifting. But im less worried about it now after talking it over and reading some of the other post. I still dont know if im thrilled over the idea of such an expensive car. but i guess i dont have to like all of the cars. hell i dont like the big heavy toyotas. Not even too much of a fan of the four door skyline. I mean its cool to see something alittle different, but im not a huge fan of heavy vehichles.

I think im just rambling now so i will end this and let others post there thoughts and ideas.

[Oki Drifter]

I agree with CrazyHawaiian, I would be nice to see an assortment of drift cars from all around the world, big as a viper or small as a Vitz, 1000+hp or less than that, FF or FR or 4WD.
Thats what a lot of the founders of the D1 want lots of different drifter drifting different cars. besides it'll be fun to see an exotic like a Lamborghini Galladro getting it's azz wupped by a more affordable car like a turboed miata overtaking it at the corners with its azz sliding left and right with bigger angle drifts than the bigger and more expensive lambo

The cars won't be as affordable as we want them, but it'll be a HELL of a show

[Ex-Cat]

Getting upset over a car's cost or sponsorship is total crap, just as Crazyhawaiian said. So what if Dodge wants to put a Viper on the field, I say more power to 'em. I'll honestly say that I'm one of the people who didn't like the GTO, but that's completely based on my personal taste and not the sponsor. You kids hating the sponsors/price of the car is like that teenager who loves his underground band until they go "mainstream" and he labels them as "sell-outs"...don't be that kid. As trite as it sounds I think you may have to reevaluate your knowledge of drifting if you think that the cost of one single car will throw the drifting community on its head.

[soarer,chaser]

Mopar should build the Charger or Baracuda and throw one of those into the mix.

[Chas]

Originally posted by strider
And why is factory sponsorship bad?

Brings money into the picture, making it so the little guys and the people using there own money, can't comptete. Im not hating the company, i just dont't agree with corporate sponsership in a sport like this.

[CrazyHawaiian]

But the problem is that nobody can afford to upkeep a D1 level car on their own income unless they are rich or something. I know I wouldnt be able to do it. Just one events worth of rear tires can cost over $600 (good tires like you'd need for D1 level of driving). Then add in vehicle shipping cost, event fee's, and your own personal traveling costs as the driver, and before you know it its really expensive to upkeep a D1 level car. And all this comes after building the car which can cost an arm and leg on its own. Sponsorships do bring money into the sport, but thats what happens at the professional level of most automotive sports. Sponsors provide the equipment, and the driver has all the fun. Sponsor gets exposure from the media coverage of the event. Its a pretty even tradeoff if you ask me. But hey nobody said you have to get involved with money and sponsorship. At the grassroots / amature level, its entirely possible for someone to upkeep their car on their own personal income, and no sponsorship needs to be involved. And you can still have a great time and learn a lot of stuff. Its only when you want to move to the next level that you really need a sponsor. I think holding sponsorship against a driver or car is pretty unfair. But hey if you're going to hate on sponsorship, why dont you hate on all sponsorships then? I dont see anyone boo'ing the Japanese sponsored cars??

[driftfreak]

well even with panco out there and all the other big name cars my friend alex qualed for D1 USA this year, in a home built, daily driven primer Corolla..
it aint about money or HP its about skill and style

[CrazyHawaiian]

Yeah but Alex has his own suspension company that he sponsors himself with, Battle Version. Very similar to some of the other D1 drivers that have started their own companies, and they sponsor themselves. Do you guys not consider that sponsored because they own the companies? Cuz if the car building / competing money comes out of the company's finances, and not the persons personal finances, it sounds a lot like sponsorship to me.

I just got done watching the 2002 D1GP round 3 (Option Vid 102), and every time they listed the stats of the drivers, a list of their sponsors by was included. And each and every one of the drivers that competed had at least 4 sponsors. I'm not saying its impossible, but from the history of the D1GP that I've seen on video, I dont really see any true non sponsored drivers (right off the street) winning any events. But hey I'll admit it could happen, and if it did, it would be cool. But I still wouldnt hate on the other drivers because they are sponsored. I respect anyone that competes at that level, regardless of what they drive or who is paying the bills.

[nissanguy_24]

CrazyHawaiian, i dont think chas is upset because they are 'sponsored' as much as hes upset at the size of the sponsor. Yeah most of the guys are sponsored but most of the guys have a handful of small sponsors, tunning shops in japan, and usually one tire sponsor. Im sure these sponsors are giving them a few grand each. Some of the bigger guys its probably aproching 10 grand. Money wise this is still small amounts. These smaller shops and these tire manufacturers are keeping the sport real because frankly there advertising works. They build a suspension component, that retails at 2 grand, they give it to the team with a sticker, and guys like us go "hmm there using whos suspension? yeah that performed pretty well im going to have to look into it"

i think the arguement against big sponsors goes back into the nascar style of racing. Can you honestly say you rushed out to buy mcdonalds because mcdonalds sponsored a nascar? or you a fan of GM products because GM wins alot of nascar races? ill bet not, and why not? because these things have nothing to do with racing.

And actually put like that i can really see alot of those complants. Of course theres a difference between disagreeing and hating out right.

I guess thats there complant though, my complaint is still mostly money. When todays big sponsors are spending 10k or so. perhaps the really rich ones are buying brand new, well nearly new S15s, and maybe providing a few grand in whatever parts they make. Compared to the amount of money Mopar will be putting in. like i said 80k just for a viper. And viper are expensive to maintain and upgrade. Thats a big jump. Another thing about the so called corporate sponsorship is, like you said most d1 guys have a handful of sponsors, few guys are footing massive bills, its divided up amount several tunning shops usualy most of which are offering sponsorship in the way of free parts. Pontiac on the other hand sponsored the GTO purely on there own. Of course they would, its there car. Mopar is likely to do the same. Maybe mopar will come out with a line of specality drift suspension components or what not, that they developed from drifting the viper.. but honestly wheres the market for that? more then likely the stuff ending up on that viper will not end up on the streets.

I guess i really dont have a problem with the viper its self, just the whole idea. Its cool another american company wants to get into it. and i understand dodge doesnt have many inexpensive RWD cars. But thats really what drifting is about. And even if you say most of us cant afford to maintain on our own a d1 level car. Thats true, but any one of us can go out and purchase a any components done to D1 cars. And of course, smog issues aside. Any one of us could perform those same modifications. It cost money, but its not unrealistic to, lets say, put a kei office suspension set up on a S13.. stiffen the chassis up alittle bit, gut the interior, use some falken tires, and set up a turbo charger.. not cheap, but nothing on cars really is. And, proving you had the tires to spare, and the skills, and the balls, that car would be competitive at a d1 level event.

Im really not bringing up anything new, perhaps i am just alittle prestimistic these last few days, but i would prefer to see drifting stay with the smaller shops, and tire sponsors, and sortof the way it is now at the professional levels, with just more events and maybe a few others leauges. Drifting is commercal, no doubt about that. Im not one of the people who say "keep money out of it" onces the money leaves its not longer professional. However there is a difference between D1 level big money, 30grand, and nascar level big money alot of 30grands.


Anyways drifting really isnt about brute force. as long as we dont take it in that direction as fans it wont go in that direction. One thing about drifting is it sortof levels the playing field... anyone want to see a 86 beat a viper?

[Ghost of Duluth]

What keeps me laughing is that you guys finally get a sport where the underdog can win. The little man can triumph in Drifting and you still whine and complain about it. In NO other pro sport can a person come off the street who is good, with a halfway decent car and win something. In Drifting there is such a huge margin for error that every pro can in actuality, wreck and leave you sitting in #1. Yet the crying continues.

In no way is sponsership bad for the sport. As a matter of fact, in this sport above all others, for reasons listed above, sponsership is wonderful. You as a no name can go out there, win an event and bingo, you get a ride. The sport is soo new that this can happen. So complain about sponsership all you want but if Toyo came up to you at an event and offered you a tire sponsership, you alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll l would except it. 100% of you no matter what you say to the contrary. If you didn't then you would be the worlds biggest idiot. How can you turn down getting paid or a way to make what you love to do easier? Think about it.

Also you all knew this day would come. You all knew that for the sport to grow it would need big money. You all want better equipement and for big companies to make low priced RWD cars. Well reap the whirlwind gentlemen cause this is the beginning of what you wanted. With Dodge comes Chevy, with Chevy comes Ford and then comes your cars that you want. Only after the big named automakers start winning some events will your dreams of cheap RWD vehicles become a reality. If Dodge wanted to spend a huge amount of money they would convert a Neon to RWD to run. But 200 grand for Dodge is the equivelant of a bead of sweat. Nothing to them. You guys have any idea how much it costs to sponsor a Nascar team? Well over a couple Mil a year for just the main sponser, not to mention all the little ones. My old company sponsered Bobby Labonte. They had a sticker the size of Youn Dong on the rear pillars. Cost them 500k a year to have that sticker there on a Winston Cup car. Look for em, Easycare. They also sponsered numerous other cars. There outlay for just sponsership of race cars was over 2 mil a year and they didn't even race. So for them to even sponser a Drift car says alot about the sport. You don't see them sponsering a Grassroots ITB car do you and thats been around ALOT longer than Driftings been popular.

Welcome to the new world gentlemen, I for one like it. Gimmie a sponsership, gimmie a free car, free tires, free technicians to look after my car, it only makes my life easier.

[nissanguy_24]

The only thing i would say ghost is this... Does GM Ford and Dodge make RWD cars because they race in nascar?

Its probably unfair to keep bringing up nascar. It truely is the extreem of racing. But it is in the back of my mind everything i think about it. Well even if pro drifting becomes like that it wont matter because there will still be guys like us, going to real events with real cars and having a fun time. Really i say bring on the viper.

[nrgdrft]

i resent a viper drifting at a event unless it was detuned,i mean a fkn viper thogh it may be quick it is a v10 wtf who is going to drive a v10 in a drift comp logically it makes no sense,pysically it would be improbable, its like drifting a viper on gt3 against a altezza ,it was probably an idea from a fkn lard as s that need a v10 to get sideways,its about skill. it dont take much skill to put a viper into a drift. i say they should put a limit on hp like 500hp sounds good. what do you fellas think about that.this is what should be on the track not a guaty viper!

[driftfreak]

nascar blows goats..

Anyway ya alex has battle version..but he also has a day job.. where he makes his real money(not much)


I say bring it on...let anything thats RWD come out and play..
only the people with the skills and balls will win..

if its all about HP, Torque ect then why did an old *Censored**Censored**Censored* corolla win the US D1 last year?