Heavy braking w/o ABS

[Xise]

figured out

I figured out why i was having trouble and i now feel like a complete dumbass. the last time i changed my brake pads i never refilled the fluid resivior which doubles as clutch oil......so ya there was rough braking and my pads wich were reletively new are totally thrashed. after i replaced the pads and filled the resivoir heavy braking is so simple, considereing i could always almost threshold brake and not lockup almost every time on thrashed pads and no fluid. anyway my problem is solved, seeing how i havent locked up my brakes in a few weeks and i go out driving about 4 times a week so i'd say I am good.

I am also slowly weening my self off of my ebrake. I mostly only use it now if i am understeering or sometimes when i *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* up and cant properly start a drift w/o using it. Right now i am trying to master braking drift but most of the time i lock the rear wheels and hear that horrible noise ( i am sure at least some of you know what i am talking about) I am sure this will take allot of time to get used to.

lately it has been raining allot so i have been going out almost every nite, and i can lock those rear wheels all day and no horrible noise. i have been trying to mimic some techniques from the drift bible but i dont want to *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* up my drivetrain so i only try that in the rain, so far I have been trying to mimic what he does during the braking drift and i am pretty sure 2 out of the 6 times i tried it tonite i managed to do it w/o locking the rear wheels. I am going to have to have someone video tape it so i can tell exactly what happens, it is supposed to rain tomorrow so maybe ill do it then.

[Drift For Food]

Yeah, for braking drift, you shouldn't need to get to the point of lockup up your wheels. Think of it as less braking and more of just shifting weight forward. You can go from a hard, quick stab at the brakes immediately before turning into the corner to cornering hard and just lightly tapping or holding the brakes for a second or two to get just enough weight to shift forward to get the rear end sliding. The second one is more for when you're cornering near the grip limit, probably with slight understeer(otherwise, you'd already be drifting, lol). A touch of the brakes or even just letting off the gas will get the rear end sliding.

The first one is something I've been working on for approaching a corner. I'll come in fast, jab hard on the brakes quick to move weight forward. Immediately after punching the brakes down and releasing, I flick the wheel to one side quick(towards the corner direction). This basically pulls the car weight foward and around to the side rotate the car. Afterwards, I can hold some brake and countersteer to hold the angle up to the corner and bleed off speed and then power on through.

Braking drift involves two aspects, first is shifting the weight forward to give the front end more traction and the rear less. This will allow your car to oversteer and bring the rear end out. The second part is the actual act of oversteering. Once the weight is forward, you have to use it. Steer. A quick jab of the brakes will bring weight forward for only a moment until the car settles back again in it's natural state. Holding the brakes will bright the weight forward and keep it there until you let up on the brakes. With the brakes on, you'll lose some steering ability since some of the tire's traction is being used to slow the car down. The jab style allows you to quick move a lot of weight forward as well as provide full steering ability immediately after you let off the brakes. You can combine both as well. Come into a corner near the grip limit, start to brake lightly to moderately to see if the rear end will break loose. If not, jab the brakes quickly to move more weight forward. You'll probably lock up the front tires for a second and produce understeer, but once you let off the brake, you'll regain full traction ability plus you'll have the additional weight shifted forward from the quick, heavy brake. This may provide enough to persuade the rear end to come out, lol. Also try a mix of light braking and heavy steering and light steering and heavy braking. Basically, you'll need to find how much weight you'll need to shift forward to give your car oversteer. Also learn how much turning grip you have left under this amount of braking.

I think the Drift Bible used braking primarily for a quick movement of weight. It wasn't a prolonged amount of braking, just enough to get the weight forward. It wasn't a real quick jab either. Then again, the car he was driving was already set up pretty neutral. It doesn't need heavy braking to get it to oversteer. A standard road car set up by default with a good amount of understeer does need a bit more braking to create the same oversteer state.

[Xise]

Thats some good advice, I have a very good understanding of weight transfer in my head I know that braking suddenly in addition to engine decelaration will shift the weight foward, I actually keep a scateboard in my car where my passenger seat used to be so I could get a better understanding of what actually happens while braking and it actually helped me allot to grasp a better understanding of that aspect of braking.

as far as your tactic for entering the corner using a feint motion and braking mid corner, I have to be very quick with the wheel or else I'll understeer into the woods lol, I have tried using feint motions to get some extra oversteer for a corner and my car seems to like that type of weight transfer best (lateral transfer) probably because it is so light, however whenever I do that I almost always feint too much and end up facing the opposite direction. I need allot of practice, It is probably just the fact that I am not countersteering quick enough because I ont have power steering, becaus sometimes I have had the wheel cut fully countersteering and foot off the gas yet i continue to oversteer.

I also know my car is VERY sensitive to throttle while in a drift, the center point seems to be around 3700 rpms and if I go over i will add some oversteer and lickwise if i brake slightly or release throttle i understeer a bit more, of course this depends on the corner itself. There is this one downhill corner I know of it is a rotary that is pretty desserted anywhere past 9:00pm but if you go all the way to the right it is like a hairpin, i can take it perfectly almost every time I am going to have to get some pictures taken or some video of it so I can show you and you can all be proud of me lol.

also I wanted to ask you guys on the fourum if 35mph is fast or not for taking what is basically a hairpin corner, that is the average speed I exit that corner at, provided I am not too pumped to look at my speedometer. I usually am going about 85-90mph before i hit the corner in 4th gear and then i brake hard downshift to 3rd release the brake jab the brake again and downshift into second gear and before i even release the clutch the rear is already sliding and I begin to countersteer just as I am matching revs and releasing the clutch....I have found this works the best for me, I can at least take a picture of the corner or something so i can post it on this fourum for your further evaluation.

[Drift For Food]

Hmm, you have a problem right there. If you're still going pretty fast and let out the clutch into second, your rear tires will slide and stay sliding(kind of like if you held down the e-brake). I you feint and downshift as well, you'll brake the rear end loose. It can be good for initiating a drift, but if you're in 2nd and you should really be in 3rd for the speed, you may spin out without the ability to control it. Again I refer to it being like if you pulled on the e-brake and you just held it. Downshifting may be too much to control. You may want to try a higher gear unless you are in fact slow enough for that particular gear. If so, try blipping the throttle with your heel to bring the revs up to make the shift smooth. Not doing so will severly disrupt the rear tires and make you spin. Even if you stay off throttle, actually would probably be worse than hitting the gas lol, you won't be able to control the slide because the rear tires would stay locked(or one spinning backwards, lol) up till the engine reved up and matched the speed for the gear.

Feint does take a little getting used to. Yes, if you're heavy with the feint, you can really toss the car around. As well, when you mix it with braking, you'll add to the spin. A heavy feint and a light feint with a little brake basically does the same thing as far as rotation. The key is to match how much of each. If you're coming in fast, use less feint and more braking to bleed off speed. If you're slow enough already, feint more to get rotation without needing to brake much or even at all.

Hehe, steering fast enough. You can't complain too much. My second drifter was my brother's old '88 Ford Ranger, a POS if you ever saw one. It too had no power steering AND it took 8 full revolutions to go from lock to lock! Beat that! haha Fast hands, fast hands, lol. That was my first rwd to drift on too. It only had about 50hp to the wheels, so I couldn't get into too much trouble. It only had adequate power to drift with in the winter, lol. On snow and ice, it had power to spare! lol I had a lot of fun drifting that thing around the parking lots at school looking for a parking spot, lol. I don't think one winter day went by that she wasn't sideways a part of the day, lol. I got that pile of crap late fall through winter and into late winter/early spring before I replaced it with my current Subaru. I spend a good amount of time learning on gravel as well. Pavement, no way! She didn't have the power nor the suspension or center of gravity to work on pavement. I tried reguardless, the rear inside tire lifts off the ground and spins, haha!

Learn to steer fast. You may actually have to let go of the wheel at times. Yeah you shouldn't, but sometimes, it's better if you do. For example, if you mess up a drift and start spinning, it works pretty well to just let the wheel spin to lock and slam the brakes and lock up all for tires, lol, did that a few times. Most of the time, you should really keep at least one hand on the wheel. Just learn to go hand over hand really fast, or learn to start countersteering earlier. In time, you'll get used to it. I had to learn fast with the Ranger. It also helped me later on for speed. In my Forester, I can easily stay ahead of any slide, expected or not. I've just gotten used to it and am fast enough.

Also, if you find yourself countersteering a lot, try changing your technique. Try to initiate less rotation. Minimize the drift. Put in just enough input to just barely start a drift. Be a little slower and a little smoother. It may just be a matter of trying too hard to get the car sideways when it could actually take quite a bit less effort.

[Xise]

ya I know what you mean, I have been driving my car for about 3 years now and all my friends are stupified by how fast i can steer in my car, especially my friends that have driven it, whenever I do a feint I usually hesitate out of instinct or something before i countersteer and it usually F*cks me over bigtime, I almost crashed a few times, I somehow corrected myself without even thinking before I hit a curb/tree or simply plumet down a hill to certain doom, hehe I must have the racer's instinct. But what you were talking about before, the wheels locking or a it being lick holding the ebrake down, I know all too well what you mean, because that is basically exactly what happens It is too late now but i think i will try what you said on saturday or something, I am getting some new tires tomorrow lets just say I will be "liberating" them from my local scrapyard. Hopefully I haven't gotten too used to the comletely bald ones i have on there now lol.