physics and drifting?

[T.U.]

any one actually think about using physics for drifting? i know you guys all go out to drift and stuff, but in a technical sence ya know? i maybe new to the forum, but i know some stuff. so ya. any ways if any ones got any good ideas i'd like to talk about them or just seeing whats new in the drifting world.

[Pennyman]

It's so incredibly complex if you think about everything going on at the same time. You have vectors, friction coeficients, rotation, torque. And I'm only scratching the surface.

[Hubert Young]

Racing or drifting revolves around physics... Basic understand of the physics involved whether gripping or drifting would enhance the driver's ability to reason the behavior of the car under different conditions... it will also help the driver to better set up the car or communicate better to the mechanic setting up the car.

[Tioki]

Yeah, everything in drifting/racing deals with physics. Everything is pushed to an extreme, expecially in drifting. As the car not only is moving forward, but the car is pointed in another direction. This can only be done by exceeding the friction of the tires and mantaining a proper throttle & steering control as to keep the tires from gaining grip during a drift.

Really the physics of drifting/racing isnt complicated, it just applies to every single aspect of the sport. It would be easy to explain how the physics works, but telling why it is that way is a bit more complicated to state. Which is what I think Pennyman is getting at.

It would be possible to calculate the precise speed, angle, countersteer, etc. for a corner, but that would be cheating!

Don't worry about the physics of drifting and gain a feel of when the tires loose grip, the car slides, etc. It's much easier to feel the physics rather than think about it.

[DoriFuta-]

Currcect me if i am wrong but isn't drifting based around physics?

To understand drifting you have to understand physics, if you understand physics then you will understand how drifting works.

This post is pretty much for the noobs section...

[Craftsman]

Originally posted by DoriFuta-
Currcect me if i am wrong but isn't drifting based around physics?

To understand drifting you have to understand physics, if you understand physics then you will understand how drifting works.

This post is pretty much for the noobs section...

You are very correct.

Physics is everything in life. Nature doesn't fallow the rules of physics. Rather, physics predicts what happens in nature. Physics is mathematical rules created from observation of nature. This is true with all of science.

Without basic knoledge of physics of your motor (thermodynamics), tires (friction from dynamics), suspension geometry (mechanical systems), racing line/ drifting (dynamics), etc., you're going to have a very fun time learning how to race or drift.

[SidewaysGts]

It really helps to know whats going to happen and -why- its going to happen. If you understand fully whats going on its veyr easy to "change a variable" and predict the out-come.

[Ris4drift]

i dont think you have to be a physics expert to drift/race. i know some really stupid people who know how to drive a car, but i do agree knowledge of physics can be an extremely important tool into setting up a car. but by no means do i think someone with a physics degree will be able to hop in and drift, theres a lot of things involved, while physics is one, getting out there and getting seat time is still without a doubt the most important part of being a drifter/driver.

[malcolm]

http://www.drifting.com/forums/showt...e&pagenumber=3

starts off as a discussion about heel and toe, but then it gets into physics... have a read through.

[VertigoEpidemic]

God...

Yeah, I'm taking physics right now. Shits crazy... basically... The force required to go into a drift must exceed the Mass of your car times the acceleration of normal force (gravity) times the Static Friction between your tires and the road times the Cosine of the angle you are drifting at. I think... atleast thats what I know.

It looks like this:

F > (Mew) * M * A * Cos(Theta)
.. .. ..^ Coeficient of .. .. .. ^ Angle in which
.. .. .. .. static friction .. .. .. .. the road is banked
.. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. (uphill/downhill, etc.)

Or something to that extent. I write up more on this after class tomorrow. I chill in there for lunch anyways.

Heres some bit of info I know off the top of my head for now:

There are two types of friction, Static and Kinetic. An example of static friction is: say you go to pick up the CD case on you desk/table and it slides on the surface while you bring it to the edge to pick it up. As it slides across the table, static friction acts against the the force that you exhert on the case. An example of kintetic friction would be this: Walking. As you walk, you put one foot down and push off the ground moving yourself forward and puting your nxt foot infront of you. In this case kinetic friction is holding that one foot in-place alowing you to bring your other foot forward.

Lets up this in to an automotive perspective:

Drifting:

Drifting uses static friction... as you slide the back end of your car out static friction opposses you. When you hear that sreetching sound your tires make as you go into the turn, thats static fricion at work.

Grip:

Grip racing uses kinetic friction... as you go around a corner kinetic friction is the force that holds you down to basically alow you to move forward. If it wasn't for kinetic friction, your tires would spin continuously and not allow you to roll forward at all.

Thats basically the short run down of it... I'm no physics professor, but thats about what I have learned 9 weeks into the class.

BTW wish me luck on my exam tomorrow!

[malcolm]

other way around dude... drifting is kinetic friction, because the contact patch isn't "contacting"... it's sliding. Grip racing could be though of in simple terms as using static friction, because the tires aren't sliding.

anyway, even when you are "gripping" there is a certain amount of slip to the tire. I think there's also a gradual scale of friction levels with a tire. Slipping a tire a little bit will give you more traction than slipping it a lot. This is obvious when you are stuck in snow... by slipping the tires slowly, you can usually get out, but if you pin the throttle, you won't go anywhere. I am not 100% sure on the reason why that is, but I think it has something to do with it not being a rigid body, like 99% of the things you learn in highschool physics. The tire flexes, and that alters friction properties.

Also, with drifting, your equations would have to take into account the following:

-spring rates
-spring dampening (ie. a frictional force on the spring)
-wheel rates (the overall rate of the wheel, including the suspension-like properties of the tire, leverage on the spring, etc, etc)
-weight transfer
-suspended mass
-unsuspended mass
-lateral sidewall flex of the tire
-energy absorption of the bushings
-moments of inertia (of the entire car, as well as the drivetrain components, brakes, etc, to a lesser degree)
-a function for the frictional forces of the tire at various slip angles, slip velocities, etc.

and much much more... an equation of this magnitude would have to be derived by a person with intelligence that would rival Einstein. Also, given that the physics behind leaning a motorcycle into a corner hasn't been theorized to an acceptable degree, and yet MotoGP teams have all this technology involved, and do quite well with it.... does the physics of drifting really matter beyond the enjoyment of barstool bantering?

[SidewaysGts]

Static frictional forces are what hold to things together kinda. Its whats keeping your soda can on your table from sliding away. Motion will be imposisble until at least one of those forces is exceeded.

Kinetic fraction is the friction thats happening between 2 moving surfaces. Say your sode can WAS sliding around your table, it would be the friction between the bottom of the can and the table itself.

So what you said was right, the static forces between the tire and the road must be exceeded in order to the tire to slide outwards, and kinetic motion is the friction that allows the tire to propel itself forward.

Good luck on your exam man

Added for what Mal said:

Indeed they do not. Drifting is fun plain and simple, the screech the smoke the smell of burning rubber and the sensation you get from facing this way..and going that way... is just incredible

[DriftGirl]

If you think about everything going on WHILE Drifting.......you WILL end up in a wall or a ditch

Now, IF your mind can calculate all the factors involved while sliding, then you need to be doing sumthing more constructive with your time......not Drifting

[-=Zero Drift=-]

look i agree that it is good to know that stuff or at least have a idea of whats going with your car during a drift but seat time is still very important. You can know exactley what is going on with your car in a drift on paper but its not the same in the seat. laters

[Craftsman]

Friction circle and other types of physics are good to know while driving. I think a good balance is needed because nothing beats experience. Like in Engineering school, nothing beats actually working out in the field with other engineers and getting to know exactly what's wrong rather than just doing the mathematical calculations for it.