Streching Tires... The truth behind them?

[GRiDRaceTech]

The RT-215s don't get greasy in one lap of a really short track, such as at the Drift Showoff. Even in two or three laps the performance difference would be negligible.

I don't think Alex ran RT-215s in the back of his Corolla, they're too grippy to spin well and tend to respond poorly to excessive drifting.

[f8ldzz]

This has been covered before.
It's going to erupt in a war.

I've been through too many real racing venues to find the argument of sidewall stiffness total bullshit.
You want stiffer sidewalls?
Run lower aspect ratio...
Run more tire pressure...

All tire manufacturers have a recommendation chart for all their tires sizes and appropriate wheel widths.
I dunno anyone else who would know tire to wheel fitments than the tire manufacturers themselves.
I know I'd follow the manufacturer recommendations then some Joe Schmoe on the street.

Liking hipari is also a subjective thing.
Driving style and suspension geometry has a lot to do with it.
If you're a good driver, you can adapt your driving technique to handle (small) variances in your set-up.
Certain geometries will work better with hipari tire set-up's: double wishbone suspensions do not roll the tire over as much as Macpherson strut designs.
I just don't like the idea of having the sidewall so "horizontal" with the possibility of tire rollover.
Now, it could be the tire (grip) is so low that the tire would slip rather than roll over on the sidewall - this is a valid point, but it's not a valid reason for best performance.

I'd rather run the biggest tires matched with the widest wheels I can fit under my car.
Street tires have very limited grip.
Race tires are a whole nother matter.
And no, I don't run a "drift" set-up on the street - I don't drift on the street in the first place.

So, it comes down to it's a style thing...
Or, you are broke and can't afford the wider width...

[CrazyHawaiian]

Just some food for thought ... go bust out any D1 Option Video and pause each time one of the D1 guys gets the car sliding. You'd be supprised how many professionals stretch their tires, front or rear, tire sponsor or not. Of course this dosnt mean they do it for purely tech reasons (maybe it is the look) but it sure seems like it works out good for them.

[CrazyHawaiian]

Also, consider that this sport is not all about performance. I mean, yeah the cars are in performance situations, but remember that the slide is the goal, not better grip, not faster times. So you cant really compare racing situations to drifting, different goals mean different theories. What creates the optimal grip situation might not be the best setup for a sport like drifting. What creates the optimal drifting situation is what we're after.

Also, consider liability. Tire manufacturers list acceptable sizes because they need to protect themselves from stupid people. Remember the lady that spilled Mcdonalds coffe and burned her legs, or the guy that picked up the lawnmower to trim the hedges and lost his fingers? There are a bunch of stupid people out there in this world. Anyone that releases products in this day of lawsuits and crooked lawyers has to protect themselves from liability. I'm sure acceptable wheel width specs are an extension of that thought.

[Reckless Hero]

Originally posted by CrazyHawaiian
Also, consider that this sport is not all about performance. I mean, yeah the cars are in performance situations, but remember that the slide is the goal, not better grip, not faster times. So you cant really compare racing situations to drifting, different goals mean different theories. What creates the optimal grip situation might not be the best setup for a sport like drifting. What creates the optimal drifting situation is what we're after.

yep ive met all too many racers that "over think" everyting and just try to hard to "get" drifting. check your ideas at the door and just have fun with it, i have fun with my car, if u think my choice of tires look stupid, i say thanks cause i dont care what u think

[tonesdef]

ok well i've read most of the posts and i ran on stretched tires on my rolla for about a year. It was awesome the first time out i had less roll in my body and 10x the response when drifting. For drifting i suggest it but for anything else i would just get a lower profile becuase stretching usaly means running a small tire and thats no good with grip. But for drifting it works and its great. My car responded much better and i had a lot more feel of what i was doing. While drifting with unstretched 50 series i could feel the tire roll befor i got out and that just made it harsh.


And yes the pros do stretch not as much as we do. The low HP hahcis stretch a lot. UEO use to runa 185 neova in the rear on his 8.5's.


what i use to run was a 15x8.5 with es100's 195/50/15

i suggest stretching to any one that is intrested in drifting it makes such a big differnce and you can't knock it till you rock it.

[Ris4drift]

Originally posted by GRiDRaceTech
The RT-215s don't get greasy in one lap of a really short track, such as at the Drift Showoff. Even in two or three laps the performance difference would be negligible.

I don't think Alex ran RT-215s in the back of his Corolla, they're too grippy to spin well and tend to respond poorly to excessive drifting.

i have several pics of alex's hatchi with sport on all 4 corners. i have drifted on them all the way around with a stock ka in my 240 (215/45r16). the grip levels these tires allow drifting is insane, and you can carry a ton mroe speed than with crappy tires. they dont last very long though, and after the 1st corner or so they do get hot, and a little easier to drift on. the grip level is still extremely high though, and they do produce a TON of smoke (with my ka you have to be full throttle to keep them going almost) . his junkyard turbo kit i am sure was putting down more power than my stock ka. not to mensino i thik he was running 14's all the way around. which are 195.

reckless hero and tonesofdef, those are some nice thought out posts.

but just to get another of my .02 in on the "grip level" comments. i personally like to have too much rear tire to where its extremely difficult to keep the rears spinning . i have noticed much much higher cornering speeds due to the grip level being increased, and the amoung of wheelspeed i require to hold the slide. same angle, just a lot faster, and it tends to lead to a huge amount of smoke since i am at full throttle most of the track minus transision (even then sometiems) but then again i do have a stock ka, so i dont hve a ton of power. but 215/45r16 falken azenis sports are almost perfect for the car imo. absolute insane amount of grip. i would like to try khumo mx or even a bigger size es100 possibly. but i for one tend to like having a huge contact patch (considering power) with as much rear grip as i can get and still be able to have enough power to hold the drift.

[stuntman240]

Originally posted by Ris4drift
but i for one tend to like having a huge contact patch

stretching small tire over wide wheel gives you more contact patch per tire size i.e.

a 205 on a 6.5 will have less contact patch then 205 on a 9 (what I run) KA!!!

[tonesdef]

personaly i will never run falken sports on any of my cars. There great for auto x than they turn into mud and seem to be really unpredicatable.

My freind was running sports on his sr20 240 all the way around and being in his car i could tell how unpredicatable they were. They would either go or grip or some time like when he nailed that curb they would spin than grip sending the car into a not so fun direction. I love es100's for drifting and the grip is great on the front. I ran fm901's for a while and well wasn't impressed at all.

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by CrazyHawaiian
Just some food for thought ... go bust out any D1 Option Video and pause each time one of the D1 guys gets the car sliding. You'd be supprised how many professionals stretch their tires, front or rear, tire sponsor or not. Of course this dosnt mean they do it for purely tech reasons (maybe it is the look) but it sure seems like it works out good for them.

I'm sorry, but I don't consider D1 to be the absolute authority on tire performance.
Yes, I agree, the parameters are slightly different for drifting.
BUT, the front tires for drifting should work similarly to grip driving.

Also, be careful with using D1 as a benchmark.
There's a lot of sponsor money in the whole sport.
This usually implies money-talks and not necessarily the BEST components (i.e. tires) are being used.
D1 is also about appeal.
Running a 245 hipari tire on a 10.5" wheel will probably get as much grip as a proper 225 wide tire on a 7.5" to 8" wide wheel - there was ways to fudge the combination to suit your needs.
You need to look at the chassis (i.e. vehicle weight), suspension design, and tire sizes.
You can get an approximation of what minimum tire size versus vehicle weight pretty easily.
Having a D1 Hachi running 225's, even hipari, is overkill in terms of tire width versus vehicle weight.
It's still all about the "balance"...

If you want to talk about ultimate tire performance without the excess baggage with sponsorship (well, to a point) check out what the SCCA National Run-Off guys are running...

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by CrazyHawaiian
Also, consider that this sport is not all about performance. I mean, yeah the cars are in performance situations, but remember that the slide is the goal, not better grip, not faster times. So you cant really compare racing situations to drifting, different goals mean different theories. What creates the optimal grip situation might not be the best setup for a sport like drifting. What creates the optimal drifting situation is what we're after.

My philosophy to setting a car up for drift it to get the best tires you can afford up front.
Screw hipari - we want best grip up front.
You set-up the rears according to the grip up front.
Like I said before, it's "balance" that's the key.
In low speed situations, it might not matter, but I try and get the car set-up for high speed drifts.

Also, consider liability. Tire manufacturers list acceptable sizes because they need to protect themselves from stupid people. Remember the lady that spilled Mcdonalds coffe and burned her legs, or the guy that picked up the lawnmower to trim the hedges and lost his fingers? There are a bunch of stupid people out there in this world. Anyone that releases products in this day of lawsuits and crooked lawyers has to protect themselves from liability. I'm sure acceptable wheel width specs are an extension of that thought.

You might be right, but somehow I doubt that.
I've seen the technical papers behind tire design, and I can tell you this...the tires are not designed to work efficiently in hipari.
Tire manufacturers spend bazillions in R&D for tire wall design and carcass contruction to work best under operational parameters.
We can narrow out scope down to "racing" tires, and none of the racing tires are run in hipari.

I really don't care if you're running hipari or not.
That's your perogative if you want to do so or not.
Just don't be telling everyone that hipari is the BEST way to run a tire - cause it's not.
So you're telling me identical cars, identical drivers, the hipari set-up is going to drift better than the non-hipari set-up?

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by Reckless Hero
yep ive met all too many racers that "over think" everyting and just try to hard to "get" drifting. check your ideas at the door and just have fun with it, i have fun with my car, if u think my choice of tires look stupid, i say thanks cause i dont care what u think

Yes, and this might be the case.
How serious are you?
If you're just screwing around, then arguing about things like this is a waste of time.
You can get a set of "free" tires and go mess around.

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by Ris4drift
i have several pics of alex's hatchi with sport on all 4 corners. i have drifted on them all the way around with a stock ka in my 240 (215/45r16). the grip levels these tires allow drifting is insane

You realize you just contradicted yourself...

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by stuntman240
stretching small tire over wide wheel gives you more contact patch per tire size i.e.

a 205 on a 6.5 will have less contact patch then 205 on a 9 (what I run) KA!!!

Do you have proof of such claims?

[Wayne]

damn, f8 stole everythign i was about to say, but ya basically with everythign he says i agree with. keep doin your thing f8 you seem to have a ton of knowledge, but basically i feel that for drift and grip you should have different rim and tire combos. i personally plan on buying ssr proffesors and r33gtr skyline rims. the skyline rims arre 17x9, and im going to use these predomintley for drift so up front im gonna have 215s and in the back 235 or 245. with the ssr proffs. they are gonna be street tires so they are going to have proper sizes. i dont know what this has to do with anything but it is my .1 cent