Streching Tires... The truth behind them?

[malcolm]

simply put, stretched tires will reduce side-wall flex. Some people like this, as it will smooth out the transition from grip to drift. However, for total traction while gripping, having the tire on the recommended wheel size will improve performance.

A tire with soft sidewalls enters and exits drifts abruptly. For lower powered cars, a stretched tire may help smooth out the exit of the drift, and give the driver a little more room for error so he/she won't bog down (as much) on the exit.

[Ris4drift]

Originally posted by stuntman240
stretching small tire over wide wheel gives you more contact patch per tire size i.e.

a 205 on a 6.5 will have less contact patch then 205 on a 9 (what I run) KA!!!

or you can just run a 275 on a 9'' wheel

although i honestly have wanted to get some 9'' wheels so i can run mustang gt takeoffs which are 245s and have that stretch just b/c it looks cool and deep down inside i am a huge ricer. :P

[Ris4drift]

Originally posted by f8ldzz
You realize you just contradicted yourself...

could you please explain? have you ever drifted? its nice having sticky tires out back. do you see the guys in FD drifting on used michelin touring tires? no. why not? because theres no grip in teh back and you wind up backpedaling the whole way trying not to just spin the tires way passed their limits. if you have more grip you have more control and more speed. but i guess since drifting is all about getting the smallest tires possible so you can spin them i am totally wrong and have never drifted in my life or played around with tires.

[CrazyHawaiian]

I'll reply in one post, no need to quote bomb. First of all, I never said or implied that running stretched tires is the BEST way to run a tire. Its obvious that I personally prefer to stretch tires when drifting, but please dont mix that up with what works best for racing (aka grip, performance). Drifting for only a few years is nowhere near enough experience for me to be able to claim that I know the "best" drifting setup. In fact, when it comes down to it, there is no "best" in this sport. There are too many variables to come up with a universal "best" setup for everyone. I gave my personal experiences, that stretched tires make the transition between traction and a loss of traction smoother, which makes it easier to control. Nothing wrong with that. Then I brought up the fact that a large number of people that drift professionally run stretched tires, regardless of tire sponsorship (which means they do it because they prefer it). The reader can come up with their own determination on what is "best" for them but hopefully they come to that determination after trying different tire setups on the track, not based on reading internet forums.

I think the reason we disagree is that you are focusing on performance (aka racing) while I am trying to focus on drifting. You're stuck on how much grip you get while I'm stuck on how smooth the transitions are. I'm sorry but I really dont care about tire performance when I'm drifting. I only care about what works good for drifting. My example of D1 has nothing to do with tire performance. In my humble opinion I think the D1 professional drifting series is a great "benchmark" to compare against. People at the amature level of any sport will always look up to the professional level, and its no different with drifting. Politics, sponsorship money, appeal, all of that stuff dosnt matter at this point. What matters is the final product, high speed competition drifting on stretched tires. I know for a fact that those guys are much better at this sport than I am. They have much more experience and much more equipment/support at their disposal. They can have any size wheel/tire they want, as many as they want, and they have the ability to test these different setups on the track whenever they want. I would consider them much more experienced than me at selecting a good tire setup to drift with. The fact that they continue to run stretched tires despite their ability to choose a "properly sized tire" must mean something. I cant say I know for sure what it means, but it sure makes me think about it.

Identical cars, identical drivers, the hipari set-up is going to drift better than the non-hipari set-up? I would guess yes except for the fact that it would not be a fair test. If the setups were identical then both cars would have the same width wheels. And if one setup had stretched tires they would not have even contact patches between the two, so of course they would be different. To make it a fair test, the car running stretched tires would also have to run wider width wheels, with the final contact patch being even between the two (you would have to measure it). In that situation I would guess that yes the car running stretched tires would probably transition smoother, making it easier or "better" to drift. The reason I can only guess is because I dont have multiple width wheels and good new tires to compare with. All my wheels are the same widths (all 15's are 7" wide, all 16's 8" wide, etc), and all my tires are used.

[tonesdef]

Originally posted by Ris4drift
or you can just run a 275 on a 9'' wheel

although i honestly have wanted to get some 9'' wheels so i can run mustang gt takeoffs which are 245s and have that stretch just b/c it looks cool and deep down inside i am a huge ricer. :P

yeah a ka will really rip up those 275's ummm no.

Okay f8 is whoring it up and talking out of my *Censored**Censored**Censored* i think. Or he knows how to race and has no clue about drifting.

First off think about the stretching thing it makes perfect sense why it would get more tire to the ground. A 215 on a 7.5 inch rim will start to round off at the end with some of the tread not on the gound. Ona 8.5-9 inch rim all the tread will be on the ground because it can't round up. I know what your going to say proper rim sizing yatta yatta no one does that other than full on racers its all about how much tire and all that crap so lets just avoid that flame battle.

Now to my other point you seem to know what you are talking about. In the way of traditional road racing and such. But this is drifting were everthing is differnt. Why do people run streched tires up front becuase less flex equals better transistions they just don't stretch to the exent that they do on the rear. the idea would be if you have the same size rims all around lets say 8.5's by what ever than it would be to run 195's or 205's in the rear and run from 210-220 on the front. This way you have good grip up front easy to break in the rear and your transistions wont be slopy and thats what drifting is all about the smoothness if your all jerking around than forget it. You may have a dope set up for road racing but you just look like a fool drifting.

Hell i can't belive people are trying to even fight about this. You can't even use a road race set up while drifting and vise versa so why would the tires be any differnt. So lets just drop that *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*. The site is called drifting.com so lets think about if from a drifters standpoint and now some autox'r or road racer.

[GRiDRaceTech]

It ends. We covered all the pros and cons. Give it a rest, I don't care how much you hate or love hipari.

[Ris4drift]

Originally posted by tonesdef
yeah a ka will really rip up those 275's ummm no.

ive driven a freinds s14 with stock ka with 245 es100 didnt have a problem with it. i knw the guy running our drift events has stock ka and drifted on his hipari 265/40r18 several times.


as to the wider tire than wheel not having a contact patch thats bs. theres at hing called air pressure a lot of people dont understand. if you have your suspension setup correctly you can get a contact patch no matter how goofy your wheel/tire setup is if you know how to play with air pressure correctly.


and as someone who has auto-xed for a long tiem and been drifting a short while i ttoally agree that a lot of road racing setups/drift setups are sometiems radically different.

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by malcolm
simply put, stretched tires will reduce side-wall flex. Some people like this, as it will smooth out the transition from grip to drift. However, for total traction while gripping, having the tire on the recommended wheel size will improve performance.

If you're talking about progressive break-away, why don't we all run narrower tires?
Wider tires actually make break-away more abrupt, so in essence you're fighting more contact patch versus more progressive break-away?

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by Ris4drift
could you please explain?

You mention more "grip" for "drifting".
Think about it.

have you ever drifted?

Hmmm...you can't be serious, are you?

its nice having sticky tires out back. do you see the guys in FD drifting on used michelin touring tires? no. why not? because theres no grip in teh back and you wind up backpedaling the whole way trying not to just spin the tires way passed their limits.

Wrong. Most of the drifters down here run tires from dumpsters. The easy answer? They can't afford good tires.

if you have more grip you have more control and more speed. but i guess since drifting is all about getting the smallest tires possible so you can spin them i am totally wrong and have never drifted in my life or played around with tires.

I dunno what this has to do with the discussion, but you just confused me.
I didn't say you should use the "smallest" size tires possible.

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by tonesdef
Now to my other point you seem to know what you are talking about. In the way of traditional road racing and such. But this is drifting were everthing is differnt.

Okay, that pretty much sums up your point.
I'll try and avoid your replies from now on.

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by CrazyHawaiian
I'll reply in one post, no need to quote bomb.

Quote bomb...never heard of it, but I like it!

A lot of the discussion is lost on this reference: why are you drifting?
If you want to just screw around, then all of this doesn't mean squat.
If we're talking serious, competition level drifting, then keep reading.
I can't tell where your intentions are; they seem to ping-pong between the two.

Yes, you're right - drifting performance is highly subjective to the driver.
Since there are no objective benchmarks to measure drifting, it all ends up being very subjective.
How do you measure subjective?
You can't.
So, as long as the driver is comfortable and likes it, that's all that matters.
Drifting is all about being in an "uncontrollable" chassis yet still being in control.

Now, when we get to serious competition level drifting, there are a few guidelines that you almost always need to follow.
Look at LSD versus non-LSD.
I think we can both agree on what would be recommended.

My point with the hipari tires is that this is not the end-all to the discussion.
You can tune "suspension" by many other variables.
Tires is just one of the many.
Many on you bring up progressive break-away - so why not run skinny tires without hipari?
It's been proven that skinny tires have better, more progressive break-away characteristics, so why don't you do that?
Do I dare say it has to deal with style?
Look at all the extreme camber in the rears with some of the D1 cars - do you think all that negative camber in the rear makes for better performance?
No, it has to do with dropping the contact patch on a wide as tire (look, nice dish on wide rims!) to perform like a narrower one.
This way you keep the bling-bling look, but you still get the progressive break-away like a thin tire - hell, the car is sponsored, so tire cost is not a concern.

To the folks drifting on public streets and parking lots, this is not for you.
I'm talking about dedicated track driving.
CH knows what this is about.
I'm usually there at HRP.
Hit me up some time - I tune Sky's 20B FC...

[Ris4drift]

Originally posted by f8ldzz
You mention more "grip" for "drifting".
Think about it.
Hmmm...you can't be serious, are you?

im dead serious. id much rather have a 215 azenis sport in rear than a 155 khumo power star. but then again ive been told that i have some skill. i can see why you would want the power star. and unlike some people i like trying to do well in the competitions, and i guess a wider tire doesnt allow more control

Wrong. Most of the drifters down here run tires from dumpsters. The easy answer? They can't afford good tires.

i havent paid for one tire for this next event. yet all i have is michelin synergy , bridgestones, conticontacts, some noname tires, and 2 FALKEN AZENIS SPORTS. the dumpster crap is bs. if your really into drifting and your really poor you will go out and find places to get tires. and you will ask non-drifting freinds for thier used tires.

I dunno what this has to do with the discussion, but you just confused me.
I didn't say you should use the "smallest" size tires possible.

well you sure didnt seem to agree with my more rear contact patch = more control/speed comment, which was simply put in more rear grip=better

[CrazyHawaiian]

I'll just throw this out there .... I think it has alot to do with the angles of the sidewalls. If the tire sits like this: |____| with the sidewalls straight up then the sidewalls will flex before traction is lost. This flex is what makes it feel harsh when traction is lost. Now if the tire sits like this \____/ with the sidewalls angled in, then they will not flex the same when traction is lost. I'm sure they still flex, but not as much since the sidewalls are rolled, so it feels smoother. I actually set up a test one day and compared 225/60/15 on a 15x7 to 225/55/16 on a 16x8 to 225/50/17 on a 17x9.5 (all 40psi on the rear). The 15's were the correct tire size and the 17's were really stretched. The 17's were by far the smoothest. Now I also know this could be due to the differences in the sidewalls and differences in tire brands, but it was a pretty interesting test. *shrug*

[_PG_]

Stretched tires help "progressive" breakaway, because, like stated alreayd, the sidewalls don't felx as much, therefore, you can use throttle more precicely and your can is more nimble without flexing sidewalls. Turn-in is quicker and break away is smoother. I don't care how stiff you get your suspension, if you have 225/45/17 on a 17x7 you will have sidewall flex that makes controlling the car in drift less predictable. Impossible? No. Likeable? Not for me.

Personally, I like the style of flush wheels (who doesn't). To get the tire to tuck under the fenders, stretched tires are necessary to a degree. Stretched tires actually allow you to run less camber (since thesidewall is angled already).. So all you guys against stretched tires... you think running -5 degrees camber is better? Besides looking dumb, that decreases your contact patch so much!

Which brings me to the next point... stretched tires allow for more contact patch... With normal sized tires, the sidewall bulges outward then the shoulders curve and THEN the tire contact patch is flat. With hippari tires, the sidewalls are angled a little bit, wich forces the tir to sit on the shoulders as well as the contact path, so in essence a stretched 215/45/17 on 17x9 will be almost the same actual contact patch as a wider 225... There are complications up[on this however, like the wider tires having more actual surface area, thus dissipate heat better and thus last longer.

In the end, like everything else, it coes down to driver preferance.

PERSONALLY from what i have tested, used, tried, and ran over a couple of years.... stretched tires are good. The thing i found to work best for me is 17x9 with 215/45/17 in front and 17x9 with 235/40/17 in rear. Of course when i get my 18x9.5's soon, i will have to start all over and find out what would work better... 225/45 or 235/40 (more rotational mass... perhaps more tire is not good... i have no clue, these findings will be determined when i get my new wheels).

[sdtouge]

what do you guys think would be a good tire size for a 17x8 wheels on a s13. for everything, autox, drift, grip and daily driven, thanks

sorry to thread jack