Streching Tires... The truth behind them?

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by malcolm
Thanks for just proving my point and contradicting yours.

Um, care to cover this in detail?

You are correct. Wider tires DO in fact make break-away more harsh. However, they give you the traction you need while the tire is sliding/spinning.

Okay, you're talking about traction but you also talking about tire sliding?
How about we change things a little...
(Engine) torque powers the (rear) tires to cause them to spin.
Drifting is about controlling the rear tires - "throttle steering".
If we eliminate the specs of the rear tires, you could conceivably control almost any dimension tire as long as you have enough torque, right?
So what does wider (or hipari) has to do with any of this?
It just becomes a personal favorite of the driver.

In order to combat the harsh break-away with the wider tire, you can either run lower-profile tires, or stretch them (same result).

Isn't that a contradiction in itself?
Lower profile or hipari causes the tires to get "stiffer".
A stiffer tires means more abrupt break-away.

Of course, running narrower tires would be stupid, because you could never get enough traction, and your drifts would have to be terribly slow to keep from spinning.

What does traction have to do with drifting?
I thought you wanted to sliding dynamics?
I mean there is a limit to how narrow you can practically go, but within reason why would you care?
Throttle steering is the driver's skill that keeps the rear tires working in your favor.
Skinnier rear tires allows for easier loss of traction in rear, but you should be able to keep it in control as long as your skills can handle it and the tires are not TOO skinny.

What does drifting speed have to do with skinny tires?
Someone mentioned hachi's going ape shit on 195's?
Drift speeds is dependent on vehicle speed (engine power), driver's skill, and how big your cajones is.
Do you mean to imply that you NEED wide tires to go faster???

In concise conclusion:

wide tires = harsh break-away
wide tires = lots of traction
hipari/stretching = smoother break-away

therefore:

wide tires + hipari = lots of traction with acceptable break-away.

It's weird seeing you reply to this, as your background should dictate otherwise?

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by tonesdef
pwned haha


gee f8 were are you. this site is so great for internet know it alls

Also sorry for the late reply...
I had two engine rebuilds, and I've got two more with at least one Haltech install all scheduled before the end of the year!

Excuse the slow responses, as I have customers I need to tend to, and I think they are a bit more important that trying to get a quick reply to this thread.

[malcolm]

Low aspect ratios and stiffer sidewalls increase grip, but break-up becomes more abrupt.

dude, I swear you have backwards. Just THINK about the physics of it for a second. With a low profile tire, you will invariably have a stiffer sidewall. That means that when you put cornering loads on it, it does NOT absorb hardly any energy. Therefore, when the tire breaks traction, it doesn't have all that potential energy built up in the sidewall, thus making the transition to the drift much smoother.

With a higher profile tire, before you break traction, the sidewall flexes, and builds up potential energy (much like a diving board at a pool). When you finally break traction, the sidewall snaps back, making the transition to drift much more abrupt (just like how the diving board releases all that potential energy and shoots you into the air).

F8, please quote some of these sources you have that say low-profile tires increase grip.

The ONLY reason racing cars have low-profile tires is so they can run bigger brakes. Look at F1. They have 13" wheels, and what looks like 70-series tires. Why? because the car just handles better (not as precise, but it is more stable in a corner).

[_PG_]

Originally posted by malcolm
The ONLY reason racing cars have low-profile tires is so they can run bigger brakes. Look at F1. They have 13" wheels, and what looks like 70-series tires. Why? because the car just handles better (not as precise, but it is more stable in a corner).

Yeah, even touring cars have a bunch of sidewall. THe overall diameter is much bigger than stock cars... notice how the front fenders ofete time are cut way bigger and they bulge where on the production car they didn't? That is because they go from like a 26 inch overall diameter to 30 or so (just random numbers).

Anyways, its interesting, if you look at F1 cars, the tire shoulder is pretty square, even with all that sidewall. No bulging tires, trying to squeeze the most tire width on the narrower rims... no, its square, not stretched, not bulged. (doesn't pertain to this argument really, i just hate people that say a 9 inch wheel should have a 285/30/17 tire. I'm like yeaaaaah bulge that sh!t baby!).

[BooZTT]

Ted and Malcolm, I can see you two going on forever about this and in the end you're just going to confuse people. Remember they won't all understand the physics of ANY of this..they want to know the basic reasons..that's all (PM each other if you want to continue your arguement). If they wanted to know more than that they would be on a different website than this. Ted, of course I know you..I've known you for how long now (and who cares how long you've known who, what does that have to do with anything? I didn't even know your screen name on here and answered a simple question..so don't jump the gun on me like that ever again). Guys...f8ldzz does have a wealth of information..just most of it not in drifting..not to say he has no clue..that would be rediculous. So just listen to what he has to say..don't be so quick to dodge his thoughts, or any of our thoughts. We all have experience in our own right. Ted, can't wait to see Sky's motor with turbines...that'll be sick. Too bad Wendell's car never got that motor, but good to see Sky putting it to use. In the end kids..running hipari tire IS a personal preference..I run it, not as extreme as some others..because I like the smoother initiation and the control with the stiffer side wall when I make corrections..but I also like to have the grip since I run a heavier car. This doesn't mean any of you should just go out and stretch the heck out of your tires, it means you need to go out and experience it for yourself and find the feel you want through experimenting. I think all of us can agree with this statement.

[_PG_]

Originally posted by f8ldzz Isn't that a contradiction in itself?
Lower profile or hipari causes the tires to get "stiffer".
A stiffer tires means more abrupt break-away.

More abrupt as in? It will break away more predictably because your sidewall isn't deforming and swaying??

What does traction have to do with drifting?

Ummm.... EVERYTHING!!! Drifting is the control of how much traction your rear wheels have. In a car with ample power, something needs to transmit it to the ground... either a wider tire/wheel combo that will give more surface area to the contact patch (which, btw, hippari does also) OR a better compound tire. Problem is, those compounds don't last for SH!T. Falken azenis Sports? Those things wear down if you look at them for too long, they are not ment to be used in a drifting like situation, their compund is too soft and their treadlife is too short. So? Get something with more life and compensate by running a wider width. SIMPLE. You could ask a 4 year old this and you get the answer.

I thought you wanted to sliding dynamics?
I mean there is a limit to how narrow you can practically go, but within reason why would you care?
Throttle steering is the driver's skill that keeps the rear tires working in your favor.
Skinnier rear tires allows for easier loss of traction in rear, but you should be able to keep it in control as long as your skills can handle it and the tires are not TOO skinny.

I pity the guy who will be driving that 600 hp 20BT and 15x6.5 195/60/15 tires....... You are a joke right?

What does drifting speed have to do with skinny tires?
Someone mentioned hachi's going ape shit on 195's?
Drift speeds is dependent on vehicle speed (engine power), driver's skill, and how big your cajones is.
Do you mean to imply that you NEED wide tires to go faster???[

Just read above... hachi's have liek 2,000 lbs and they need to put 130-180hp to the ground. Some of use with turbos and ample power need a little more. Especially when our cars are heavier. Please please, stay away from my car and your "theories".



When you asked for people's "backgrounds" we gave you racing/driving info. To me, you told us what cars you have owned and who you know on a first-name basis. Well..... great, we all know a lot of people. I think it is a little pretentious to list "who i know" and who i am friends with and all this crap, that doesn't really matter does it? Not in this argument.

Go back to reading your books and theorizing, while we go back to driving and tuning. I don't have to theorizer what works better, i know from EXPERIENCE. whoa imagine that. Bye.

[tonesdef]

Originally posted by _PG_



When you asked for people's "backgrounds" we gave you racing/driving info. To me, you told us what cars you have owned and who you know on a first-name basis. Well..... great, we all know a lot of people. I think it is a little pretentious to list "who i know" and who i am friends with and all this crap, that doesn't really matter does it? Not in this argument.

Go back to reading your books and theorizing, while we go back to driving and tuning. I don't have to theorizer what works better, i know from EXPERIENCE. whoa imagine that. Bye.

damn he be name dropping. But yeah so far f8 you have showed zero knolwedge in drifting which is what were talking about.

[CrazyHawaiian]

I think he deserves a little more respect then this. No need to be name calling and stuff. Everyone has their own ideas on what works and what dosnt. Hopefully we can discuss them and come to our own conclusions without dragging this through the mud.

When it comes down to it, there is no proof that stretching tires works better for drifting. For the most part, its a "seat of the pants" feel that someone has to try before they feel the difference. I've tried it, and I think it feels better. But you guys gotta understand that the guys into roadracing and stuff are all about hard facts, while we can afford to be a bit more unconventional. Its one of the main things that seperates the sport of drifting from the sport of roadracing, and it can be shown at many different levels, even down to how the sports are judged (objective vs subjective). For someone with a roadracing background, they would want to see tests done to prove that stretching tires works good before they would accept it. Until then, it just goes against everything they've been doing their whole life. Kinda like how drifting is the opposite of everything they've been trying to achieve when roadracing. I hope this can help the rest of you guys understand why some people will fight this issue tooth and nail. Until some test is done to prove this as fact, it will always be questioned.

Of course, the quick solution is to get the guys doubting it to try stretched tires for that "seat of the pants" feel. So I'm willing to donate two sets of tires to you f8ldzz. Let me know the specs of the wheels and I'll get you two sets of used tires, one stretched, and one not stretched, and you can determine the difference. I dont think I know you, but I have seen that 20B FC at the Drift Session. Please tell the driver not to beat it with a hammer anymore if he crashes. Thats not my car but it hurts to watch.

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by malcolm
dude, I swear you have backwards. Just THINK about the physics of it for a second. With a low profile tire, you will invariably have a stiffer sidewall. That means that when you put cornering loads on it, it does NOT absorb hardly any energy. Therefore, when the tire breaks traction, it doesn't have all that potential energy built up in the sidewall, thus making the transition to the drift much smoother.

Okay, you're partially right.
That last part is a little vague...see below.

With a higher profile tire, before you break traction, the sidewall flexes, and builds up potential energy (much like a diving board at a pool). When you finally break traction, the sidewall snaps back, making the transition to drift much more abrupt (just like how the diving board releases all that potential energy and shoots you into the air).

Okay, if it were biased play tires, then you would be totally correct.
Due to radial tire construction, it's a little bit different.
Radial tires tend to roll over when loaded laterally, and the dynamics of that goes way beyond trying to describe on here.

Okay, I think we are not on the same page...
This is what I think you guys are trying to describe:
Hipari stiffens sidewall - I agree.
The stiffer sidewall promotes faster tire slippage when talking directly about throttle steering with the rear tires.
Now, be careful about what you call "progressive", because most any other automotive racing sport tends to use the word "progressive" as implying "slow / slower" or "softer".
See Eibach when they talk about their "progressively" wound springs.
Most people, when talking about tires and their break-away characteristics, mention "progressive" as opposite of "abrupt", or a slower transition from grip to total loss of traction.
I think you're trying to describe is the "better" transition from full grip to full sideways angle under drift with the rear tires spinning from throttle steering.
With a "softer" set-up, you need to be more abrupt and exaggerated to get the rear end out or have more power and torque from the engine.
Having stiffer rear tires allows for a much easier and faster transition!

F8, please quote some of these sources you have that say low-profile tires increase grip.

Um, let me check if I actually said that...

The ONLY reason racing cars have low-profile tires is so they can run bigger brakes. Look at F1. They have 13" wheels, and what looks like 70-series tires. Why? because the car just handles better (not as precise, but it is more stable in a corner).

Oh dude, you do not want to get into a debate on F1 technology with me.
That's not a threat.
I've been following F1 religiously from about 1999 to this day.
Ask Mike, we invade the house even at 4am in the morning watching it live in Hawaii.

F1 mandates strict rules on wheel sizes.
The small wheel diameters is to restrict brake sizes.
It has nothing to do with performance.
If F1 allowed 20" wheels, they would do it - why?
Cause you can run humungous brakes under larger wheels.
F1 suspensions are tuned with within 1" max travel (usually, with some exceptions i.e. Monte Carlo) - that's half an inch in rebound and compression.
The tires response to rebound and compression is actually part of the suspension tuning!
F1 cars do not want long suspension travel cause this affects aerodynamics!
Aerodynmics is probably the top variable that the engineers mess with to get the cars to go fast - this is how Ferrrari wins and how BAR-Honda loses even though Honda has almost 100bhp over Ferrari in the engine!

I respect your racing resume, but you need to brush up a little bit on your F1 tech...

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by _PG_
Ummm.... EVERYTHING!!! Drifting is the control of how much traction your rear wheels have. In a car with ample power, something needs to transmit it to the ground... either a wider tire/wheel combo that will give more surface area to the contact patch (which, btw, hippari does also) OR a better compound tire. Problem is, those compounds don't last for SH!T. Falken azenis Sports? Those things wear down if you look at them for too long, they are not ment to be used in a drifting like situation, their compund is too soft and their treadlife is too short. So? Get something with more life and compensate by running a wider width. SIMPLE. You could ask a 4 year old this and you get the answer.

Bingo!
You know what you are talking about sir!

I pity the guy who will be driving that 600 hp 20BT and 15x6.5 195/60/15 tires....... You are a joke right?

When did I say I was going to do that?
With 600hp on tap with about 550lb-ft, the beast should spin 315's with ease.
So why limit yourself with a 195 tire?
If you got the power, why not use it right?

Just read above... hachi's have liek 2,000 lbs and they need to put 130-180hp to the ground. Some of use with turbos and ample power need a little more. Especially when our cars are heavier. Please please, stay away from my car and your "theories".

Do those D1 Hachi's run only 180hp?
For some reason, I highly doubt that.
Isn't one of the D1 hachi's running over 300?

When you asked for people's "backgrounds" we gave you racing/driving info. To me, you told us what cars you have owned and who you know on a first-name basis. Well..... great, we all know a lot of people. I think it is a little pretentious to list "who i know" and who i am friends with and all this crap, that doesn't really matter does it? Not in this argument.

Funny, people were hollering about backgrounds.
I see others stating stuff other than racing backgrounds, but yet I get chastized for "breaking" this rule.
Guess I gotta play with a different set of rules than everyone else, huh?
I bet you thought I was some dumbass who was just spouting crap out my ass, right?
But once I show a little bit of legitimacy, the game changes, right?

Go back to reading your books and theorizing, while we go back to driving and tuning. I don't have to theorizer what works better, i know from EXPERIENCE. whoa imagine that. Bye.

Yeah, I've seen your replies, and your record isn't pretty either.
I really hope this is your last reply to me.
Do you promise?

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by tonesdef
damn he be name dropping. But yeah so far f8 you have showed zero knolwedge in drifting which is what were talking about.

Hey tonesdef, I got one question for you...
Are you the same tonesdef on the RX-7 Club / Forum and maybe on those other RX-7 boards?
NoPistons.COM?

[f8ldzz]

Originally posted by CrazyHawaiian
I think he deserves a little more respect then this. No need to be name calling and stuff. Everyone has their own ideas on what works and what dosnt. Hopefully we can discuss them and come to our own conclusions without dragging this through the mud.

Thanx dude, but I've seen worse.
Don't worry about me, I've been through enough of this kinda stuff it doesn't phase me anymore.
That pic of the "mentally challenged" kid running with the caption winning-an-argument-online-is-like-winning-the-special-olympics...

Of course, the quick solution is to get the guys doubting it to try stretched tires for that "seat of the pants" feel. So I'm willing to donate two sets of tires to you f8ldzz. Let me know the specs of the wheels and I'll get you two sets of used tires, one stretched, and one not stretched, and you can determine the difference.

Nah, don't need to go through all the trouble.
We're at the point that all the dumpster tires is screwing us up.
We're getting inconsistent feedback from the car when we change tires, and that's messing with our suspension tuning.
We're going to paying for decent rear tires soon - looking at Federals, Falkens, or Kumhos...

I dont think I know you, but I have seen that 20B FC at the Drift Session. Please tell the driver not to beat it with a hammer anymore if he crashes. Thats not my car but it hurts to watch.

Yeah, it's his chassis.
I can't tell him what to do with his car.
I'm trying to convince him to change shells, but he thinks he can keep the current one he has now.
We even HAD a straight shell a few days ago!
Looking forward to meeting up with you guys some day - it looks like we're not going to be able to make the Dec. 4 DS2.

[Ris4drift]

holy crap you are STILL arguing on this? LOL

oh well, just to piss yall off further im gonna go ahead adn throw out there the fact that nobody that won a FD event this year was usign hipari in any way fashion or form. also as far as i noticed team falken really doesnt, i dont recall seeing any the yokohama cars, depending on how much you have to stretch them to be hipari maybe 1/2 the dunlop cars. but i didnt see one car this year at FD that were hipari hardcore ( like 245 on a inch rim i saw, but nothign too insane, ive seen 245 on 9'' at an auto-x ), therefore im gonna stick by my original thoughts and say id rather have contact patch and know how to properly count between 1-50 while reading my tire pressure guage instead of stretching a 205/45r17 on a 13'' wide rim.

[slidingsky]

Hey dummies, have you tried diffrent tire brands?
This may sounds stupid, but youd be suprised how diffrent flex is between diffrent brands.
IM running bridgestone Ggrids. They grip pretty nice once loadeded, but everyone was right about soft sidewalls. I guess ridgestone is like that.
I also have nitto 555rs on another set of rims. <All my tires are the recomended size for the rims> They are much stiffer. Its worth it to me to stay away from bridgestone. They are great but I prefer stiff sides. Im paying for tires and there are alot of diffrent ones out there so find out what suits you. Unless your cheap and just want to make a stiff wall out of a soft tire.
My biggest thing against stretching is that my rim is sticking out.
*Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* happens on the road. Id just hate to crub the crap out a nice rim.
anyways.
sky

[jdmdrewS14]

I streech my tires because those cool guys in D1 do it and man theyre are good. You guys argue too much about to stupiest things