(FEEDBACK) FORMULA D ATLANTA May 8-9th 2009

[courantcom]

dang... i'd be so pissed if anyone talked to me like that... well.. good thing i dont have to deal with all this drama. from the looks of things ATL was a great event other than this tire issue. I am sure everything will be figured out. wished i could have been out there watching this event live! being a poor college student sucks..

Actually, certain competitors were straight up "talked at" by Formula D with regards to their controversial decision. I don't think I need to elaborate exactly on the tone or exactly who said what and how. Either way, I'm also in your shoes and I don't have to deal with all this drama...but I like to be aware of it and speak my thoughts about it. As always, and with time, everything in life gets sorted out on its own. I'm hoping that everyone watches Formula D with a magnifying glass to see how they go about solving this issue. Last year's issue was the topic of "modified suspension". This year's topic seems like "tires".

The event itself was really good! Road Atlanta is an excellent facility with adequate parking, adequate walkways, adequate facilities, etc. On top of that, Road Atlanta itself is a beautifully set track...like a race track embedded in a forest. Once the fans hear which drivers are coming, they start making plans on going. The fans come because of the drivers.

I think it would have been a better idea, though, to put the vendor booths up top by the where the amphitheater style seating would be. That way, it won't be such a 3/4 mile round trip walk for the fans. Instead, that area was general parking. Park the cars down where the paddock is, and put the vendor booths up there instead.

[DriftChick]

Well this thread has gone all to hell.

It often seems that the people directly affected by a tough enforcement of the rules swallow the pill and move on, while their supporters or "people in the know" that aren't even involved in the series drag the issues out online for months and months until a small infraction becomes drifting's own version of Watergate.

Formula D is nice enough to actually try to discuss and explain the situation on a forum (which more often than not gets them in more trouble) to some closed-minded people that have their minds set on crushing any FD explanations with accusations of fraud, conspiracy and "minimalist PR answers".

It's nice to see FD doing so well, despite the evil economy, but unfortunately there will always be the same people sitting by their computers ready to attempt to take someone/something successful down a few pegs if they can.

Let the teams do the talking to FD, I'm sure they're all big boys and can pick up a phone to voice their opinions and concerns all by themselves.

Just a thought, but would everyone be so pissed if it was Rhys Millen or Sam Hubinette that got DQ'd over a tire issue? I really doubt it. It would be more of a "he deserves it" tone in this thread I think.

/end rant.

Back to the topic of this thread.... I loved the whole weekend! I had an amazing time, and can't wait to see another FD event. I was sad to see Foxy Foust out so soon though. I was trying to get a ride in his car on Friday, but it didn't work out. Maybe next time!

[courantcom]

Well this thread has gone all to hell.

It often seems that the people directly affected by a tough enforcement of the rules swallow the pill and move on, while their supporters or "people in the know" that aren't even involved in the series drag the issues out online for months and months until a small infraction becomes drifting's own version of Watergate.

Getting disqualified doesn't sound like a small infraction. If Formula D wanted to enforce their tire rules, then they should have given Pat Mordaunt that pill during practice on Thursday, instead of allowing him to advance into the final 8 round -- and then disqualifying him. Maybe if they told him on Thursday (practice), he would have had a small chance to source a different type of tire to proceed with the competition.

Formula D is nice enough to actually try to discuss and explain the situation on a forum (which more often than not gets them in more trouble) to some closed-minded people that have their minds set on crushing any FD explanations with accusations of fraud, conspiracy and "minimalist PR answers".

They get in trouble because their explanations are not very strong or well founded. Of all the times I post on here asking for explanations, all I get is a request to speak with someone in private over the phone, in person, in an office, etc. Why not speak here...where everyone can see. Formula D is an event that is available to the public. It's a public event. Their rules are available to the public via their website. If it's all available to the public, then it can be subject to public scrutiny.

It's nice to see FD doing so well, despite the evil economy, but unfortunately there will always be the same people sitting by their computers ready to attempt to take someone/something successful down a few pegs if they can.

This can go both ways... "It's nice to see Pat Mordaunt doing so well, despite the evil economy, but unfortunately there will be always be the same people sitting by their desks ready to attempt to take someone/something successful down a few pegs if they can." ;-)

Let the teams do the talking to FD, I'm sure they're all big boys and can pick up a phone to voice their opinions and concerns all by themselves.

I'm a fanatic, a fanaylist...a concerned voice. Nonetheless, I know I'm a voice of reason, and I ask very valid questions.

Just a thought, but would everyone be so pissed if it was Rhys Millen or Sam Hubinette that got DQ'd over a tire issue? I really doubt it. It would be more of a "he deserves it" tone in this thread I think.

No...only their $ponsor$ will get pissed and wonder why their sponsored team was disqualified, and then maybe their sponsor dollars to Formula D may be in jeopardy. So...from Formula D's standpoint, why would they DQ a competitor that brings them money. Rhys Millen brings in Hyundai and Red Bull. Sam Hubinette brings in BF Goodrich and Mopar. Rhys Millen was on Toyo R1-R tires -- same as Pat Mordaunt. In this "tough economy", everyone needs to do what they can to get the dollars.

/end rant.

Back to the topic of this thread.... I loved the whole weekend! I had an amazing time, and can't wait to see another FD event. I was sad to see Foxy Foust out so soon though. I was trying to get a ride in his car on Friday, but it didn't work out. Maybe next time!

This makes me wonder who you are now...not everyone can get a chance to get a ride from any driver in Formula D. You're not media...but maybe you were given media access. I'm guessing you worked for Formula D over the weekend...yeah.

Anyways...there's a serious subject in this thread. Tires tires tires...which tires did not comply with Formula D's durometer test? Toyo R1-R's for sure...what about Hankook?

[OldSkool510]

Tiregate........

[DriftChick]

Getting disqualified doesn't sound like a small infraction. If Formula D wanted to enforce their tire rules, then they should have given Pat Mordaunt that pill during practice on Thursday, instead of allowing him to advance into the final 8 round -- and then disqualifying him. Maybe if they told him on Thursday (practice), he would have had a small chance to source a different type of tire to proceed with the competition.

To my knowledge, many series do their testing after an event. You can't blame FD for an infraction that they caught, whether it happened before or after a run/event. It's up to the drivers to follow the rules, no matter how small or insignificant they may seem. You guys are saying rules should be enforced, and that is what they are doing.

They get in trouble because their explanations are not very strong or well founded. Of all the times I post on here asking for explanations, all I get is a request to speak with someone in private over the phone, in person, in an office, etc. Why not speak here...where everyone can see. Formula D is an event that is available to the public. It's a public event. Their rules are available to the public via their website. If it's all available to the public, then it can be subject to public scrutiny.

He did answer your questions, but you call his answers weak and unfounded, regardless of what he says. he doesn't even stand a chance.

This can go both ways... "It's nice to see Pat Mordaunt doing so well, despite the evil economy, but unfortunately there will be always be the same people sitting by their desks ready to attempt to take someone/something successful down a few pegs if they can." ;-)

A rule is a rule, it was up to him to follow it, regardless of whether he knew about his tire issues or not. You can't blame FD for enforcing the rules.

I'm a fanatic, a fanaylist...a concerned voice. Nonetheless, I know I'm a voice of reason, and I ask very valid questions.

Sure. But you downplay valid answers too.

No...only their $ponsor$ will get pissed and wonder why their sponsored team was disqualified, and then maybe their sponsor dollars to Formula D may be in jeopardy. So...from Formula D's standpoint, why would they DQ a competitor that brings them money. Rhys Millen brings in Hyundai and Red Bull. Sam Hubinette brings in BF Goodrich and Mopar. Rhys Millen was on Toyo R1-R tires -- same as Pat Mordaunt. In this "tough economy", everyone needs to do what they can to get the dollars.

I've seen first hand how sponsored drivers do not get special treatment. Believe it or not, some sponsors don't care about how well their driver's finish (to an extent of course). It's about visibility and connecting with the customers that buy their products. 1st place doesn't guarantee sales, and they aren't going to drop out of the series if their car isn't always on he podium.

This makes me wonder who you are now...not everyone can get a chance to get a ride from any driver in Formula D. You're not media...but maybe you were given media access. I'm guessing you worked for Formula D over the weekend...yeah.

This further proves my point that you like to make assumptions and invent conspiracies. I work for FD? Not a chance. Any idiot that walks through the paddocks can walk up to a driver/team/mechanic and ask for a ride in the car. Sometimes being female has its advantages. But nice try.

Anyways...there's a serious subject in this thread. Tires tires tires...which tires did not comply with Formula D's durometer test? Toyo R1-R's for sure...what about Hankook?

Finally! A constructive question!

[Formula D]

Guys,

Tires are controversial topic, yes, and Courantcom/Mr.Two you have your right to be critical of the way we answer to certain topics. Generally you are. That is your right. We do our best to answer questions in public that will satisfy you, but most times they do not even if it is the truth straight up. Let me say I have spoken with Pat and other drivers at length after the fact and it is my feeling that everyone understands the parameters of this issue. That is the most important thing and the people we deserve to address first. In this situation, the issue is more complex and certain people including Pat deserve a certain level of confidentiality until everything plays out. First we have an obligation to them: Teams and drivers. After that I am sure it will all be public and you guys can go to town on every aspect of the rulings, who is involved, etc etc.

I love F1 and they are probably the single most controversial sporting entity out there so in some sense, I enjoy knowing that even they don't have it all right. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/07/1...t-f1-scandals/

[rtype16]

It's like someone spending thousands of dollars getting a show car ready for an event, and then having a 14 year old kid come to judge it wondering what in the world is a Kharman-Ghia.

Sorry just found this funny cause I used to work on these cars a lot back in the day. But its Karmann Ghia. No hyphen and two n's

[NNog]

man.. this thread is getting out of hand.. the title says "FEEDBACK" not "RANT" i'm just thankful that there is a drifting series out there to support all the great american/international drivers out there that is not a DUB style car show with some drifting in it. from all the twitter updates this event seemed like it was awesome! I think the only negative thing about this event, for me, was that i couldnt be there in person to see the two scions battle head to head. that would have been a great sight to see.

[manny_pacquiao]

man.. this thread is getting out of hand.. the title says "FEEDBACK" not "RANT" i'm just thankful that there is a drifting series out there to support all the great american/international drivers out there that is not a DUB style car show with some drifting in it. from all the twitter updates this event seemed like it was awesome! I think the only negative thing about this event, for me, was that i couldnt be there in person to see the two scions battle head to head. that would have been a great sight to see.

dammn looks like formula drift blew out atlanta with an awesome show! props to formula drift! the formula d twitter updates were awsome! other than that yeah seriously i agress, this looks like more of a "RANT" than "FEEDBACK" thread.

[driftforfun]

Its all dollars and sence

Sorry to burst everyones bubble but lets face reality here. Formula Drift is in the business of making money$$$$ Thats all it is. It just happens to be that they make money on drifting.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Ryan, Jim and the rest of the FD staff are not die hard enthusiast like the rest of us. They are businessmen. Smart ones I would say.

Do you think they care about clipping points, angle and speed? Sorry they dont...
While the rest of us are on the edge of our seats cheering for our favorite driver and booing judges for poorly judged runs. They are talking to sponsors, securing media coverage, etc..

If I was them I would not want to piss off my meal tickets like Rhys, Sam, JR and Tanner.
Pat Mondurant? While he is a talented driver and deserves every accolade he receives he offers no financial gain to Formula Drift (No Disrespect to Pat).
Sad to say but Formula Drift is no longer a sport for privateers.

Drifting has officially reached corporate status. Sponsorship dollars are more important than clipping points.

Sad that some of us cant accept that fact.

We all know that Toyo was using a tire softer than specified. Hell so was Hankook and Falken for that matter.

FD knows that it has to enforce the rules but they also do a good job of interpreting the rules. I agree all teams using illegal tires should be DQ from the ATL event. But it wont happen.
Dollars and cents my friends. Remember guys this is a business.

[Bebop]

No...only their $ponsor$ will get pissed and wonder why their sponsored team was disqualified, and then maybe their sponsor dollars to Formula D may be in jeopardy. So...from Formula D's standpoint, why would they DQ a competitor that brings them money. Rhys Millen brings in Hyundai and Red Bull. Sam Hubinette brings in BF Goodrich and Mopar. Rhys Millen was on Toyo R1-R tires -- same as Pat Mordaunt. In this "tough economy", everyone needs to do what they can to get the dollars.

Very good pont

[vvtisupra]

With so many variables concerning durometer testing especially directly following a run. Is it not up to the organization to come up with a standardized test?

If I am not mistaken the test can be scewed due to angle in which the durometer is pushed onto the tire. In most cases with cars that have wheels tucked away into the fender. That alone can cause a challenge for the person testing the hardness of a tire ammirite?

Also, the coefficient of friction of the race track and heat and temperature of the race track can all cause variations in tire temperature, not including driving style, driving line, suspension/alignment set up. Ammmirite?

So say Pat did do durometer testing before and aft a run or even when the tire was unmounted or when the wheels were off the car and his durometer read 52 for the whole day. And not until say pat got into 4th place and had a super heated battle with Joon that there was a residual tire build up (plus feathering of the tire) and say the official who was testing in the dark laying on the ground trying to apply the durometer as perpendicular to the tires surface as possible accidentally presses on the residiual tire and reads below 49.


Is it pats fault for such underlaying variables?


For this reason I think Formula D should have a standardized test. Temperature controlled, consistent positioning on a tire, have a fixture for the durometer to be as perpendicular to the tire surface as possible. Before and after readings etc etc. Possibly have a engineering materials testing lab test the current tires being used not only for durometer testing but also for friction material testing.
(because we all know a softer tire isn't always the stickiest of compounds)

And go through the tires before the event and put a unique stamp/seal on the sidewall that approves the tires. This surely is more work and cost for Formula D, but because it is the premier professional drift event I am sure they can make it work. Because we all know that there is more to tire technology than a 40 dollar durometer.


In fact, there is a laboratory that we use out in Bolsa Chica in Huntington Beach not too far from your location. The place is called Stork Materials Testing they do testing for our metallurgy, but im sure they do other material testing. Maybe they can design a standardized test that you guys can do out in the field or maybe submit all the pre approved tires listed in the rule book to be retested and possibly redesign a way to come up with pre approved tires.

Because lets be honest it could be possible that some teams are using compound modifier but I know for a fact that most teams don't even mount tires till they arrive at the track and have the services provided for them.

I know toyo just leaves their tires in a stack next to the tire mounter and only mount the tires when time comes for a new tire. Is there even enough time to use friction modifiers? The only time i heard of that being used was for RC car foam tires that needed to be soaked in a bag for 24 hours.

All in all, I say standardized. Cut away the possibilities of ending a persons season by getting rid of outliers.

[OldSkool510]

Tiregate.....

[J-Rod]

I SAY AGAIN BEST DRIFT EVENT EVER!!!!!!

See you in Jersey...

Participate, congratulate and no hate!!!!

[Brian]

Mr. Jarod, lemme know if you can get me a pair of those Pumas from GB3000. I was trying to figure out a way to get a goody bag at Viceroy, but I didn't.