Why on Earth a VIPER?

[noobster]

Originally posted by '97 S14 SE Turb
Those rules would hurt everyone else but the Viper.

exactly.

[marshun]

Originally posted by Craftsman
$%)(*$% the MOPAR... The Viper is making drifting mainstream. This is going to ruin the sport. Drifting is all about being grassroot POS cars and how sideways you can hold your car. That Viper didn't belong on the track.

I agree. The GTO was cool though. I really like Rhys Millen. Heck, I got to shake his hand in the pits before his second qualification run.

The El Camino was a perfect example of what American drifting should be all about. The Viper pissed me off.

Anyways,
Matt.

mainstream? get over it. drifting is everywhere now and i kinda like it like that.

an el camino drifting? hehe. thats funny.

but the viper's weight hurts itself a good amount already. i find it interesting that theres a company drifting a car that no one would really drift.

i like the idea that drifting will inspire light weight compact sport cars to come back. well one's we could afford anyway. i'd count out the s2k and a is300. :P

[noobster]

Originally posted by marshun
mainstream? get over it. drifting is everywhere now and i kinda like it like that.

an el camino drifting? hehe. thats funny.

but the viper's weight hurts itself a good amount already. i find it interesting that theres a company drifting a car that no one would really drift.

i like the idea that drifting will inspire light weight compact sport cars to come back. well one's we could afford anyway. i'd count out the s2k and a is300. :P

ive seen some mr2's try to drift and its tough for them cuz they are midengine.

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by malcolm
I say they just include one more rule:

all suspension points must be located to the chassis at the stock positions.

all of a sudden, tube-frame cars are banned, and perfect/wildly expensive suspension is not legal either. Also, throw in another rule:

all cars must weigh at least 85% their stock weight.

Now semi-tube-frame cars are not really needed.

This makes the GTO illegal for the rules too. THey changed the stock mounting positions and dropped its weight from 3890 to 3000 lbs. Thats under 80 percent of the stock weight. those numbers may be off by 20 or 30 lbs but it should be pretty acurate.. And that information comes from Rhys Millen him self in interviews.

I think the question we need to ask is does the Viper Competition Coupe count as a regular viper, or is this trim level so different that it really warrants its own car. And the Production viper production numbers shouldnt be counted.

The way i see it, its alot like if Nissan produced a S15 Silvia full blown race car. sold a few dozen and considered it a stock Silvia...

So i guess personally i think the VCC is signifigantly different enough to warrent its own production numbers not the stock viper's production numbers to be counted. But that is the debateable Question.

[marshun]

wow the gto dropped that much weight?!?! i find that........ incredible.

rhys can drive.

[Drifter_C4]

Here's my opinion disregard it or embrace it.

I believe that any car that can be thrown sideways for a decent competitive drift should be allowed to compete. If someone wants to come out with a Viper or even starts drifting Lamborghini's let them, what's it going to prove exactly? I like when these high horsepowered cars drift, it produces much smoke. Nomura Drifts that 600+ horsepower Skyline drifts it and loses his opponents behind him, it's wonderful to watch, and he doesn't win because of horsepower, but because of skill. He does lose to, to underpowered cars, Katsuhiro Ueo (SP?) has that underpowered Hachi and can maintain a beautiful drift and even pass a overpowered car on the turns. I say let them bring their big dogs. Us and everyone else can bring what they want, we'll see underpowered cars beating these big monsters. I would love to see a Hachi beat a Viper, or even a Vette.

I also believe this will help the market, we're having a drought of great FR cars, and hopefully this will allow a spark to ignite in the companies minds to start bringing out better FR cars (Especially you Toyota). So hopefully that will happen. I doubt it, but I can wish.

As for Company sponsers. I don't think a company should sponser their own car. I mean even if you have to use APC, let APC sponser you. I mean we haven't seen TRD drift cars or Mazdaspeed yet. So why even bother with sponsoring your own car. Make more cars to fit the category of the racing provided and let the performance companies do their thing.

Haha what a ramble, that's my opinion

[malcolm]

Those rules would hurt everyone else but the Viper

what???? The viper has tube-frame chassis. Therefore if you outlaw tube-frame chassis'd cars, then that viper can't run! How on earth would these rules hurt anyone else?

Think of a 240SX for a minute. I am not sure of the curb weight, but for argument's sake, let's say it is 2500 lbs. With the 85% rule, it wouldn't be allowed to be anything under 2125 lbs. This means that people can put on their carbon hoods, strip the interior, and do some lightening, but it won't require someone to build a 1700 lb special to be able to compete.

Also, if you look at a lot of the cars out there, they are running stock suspension mounting points anyway, so it won't hurt them at all. Sure, suspension can still be open, but they need to mount to stock locations on the mass-production version. Since that viper is not a production car, it would be ineligible with that rule, yet all the 86's, 240's, etc, etc, would be just fine.

Now it's your turn to come up with an intelligent rebutal, if you can. Don't just make a statement that opposes someone with no argument behind it.

[malcolm]

I think the question we need to ask is does the Viper Competition Coupe count as a regular viper, or is this trim level so different that it really warrants its own car. And the Production viper production numbers shouldnt be counted.

exactly. the VCC is a tube-frame car, and that should not be allowed. If they want to build up a normal viper, let them. That would be good for the sport of drifting. I don't like it that when it is just starting off, Dodge and GM are dumping a ton of money into it and making it really difficult for up-and-comers to show what they're capable of.

As for the GTO, perhaps it should not be legal either. Have you gone to their site and seen the body-in-white they started with? That thing rivals the preparation of any Super-Touring or GT car in the world right now. With slightly different suspension settings, that car could probably go out and fare quite well in the Speed GT series.

Would it really be fair if someone took a Supra, lightened it to 2300 lbs, put in a 750 bhp motor, giagantic tires, etc, etc, and drifted that? No, it wouldn't. But someone should build a beast like that because the rules need to be changed for some of these events to make it a little more friendly to the little guys. Right now there aren't enough big teams to make it worth catering to them.

Once we get 20+ tuning companies or factories into drifting, THEN they should start to cater to them, and have technical meetings with the teams. Until then, they should make the playing field even enough to allow lower budget teams, or independent drivers, to be able to compete.

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Originally posted by malcolm
what???? The viper has tube-frame chassis. Therefore if you outlaw tube-frame chassis'd cars, then that viper can't run! How on earth would these rules hurt anyone else?

Think of a 240SX for a minute. I am not sure of the curb weight, but for argument's sake, let's say it is 2500 lbs. With the 85% rule, it wouldn't be allowed to be anything under 2125 lbs. This means that people can put on their carbon hoods, strip the interior, and do some lightening, but it won't require someone to build a 1700 lb special to be able to compete.

Also, if you look at a lot of the cars out there, they are running stock suspension mounting points anyway, so it won't hurt them at all. Sure, suspension can still be open, but they need to mount to stock locations on the mass-production version. Since that viper is not a production car, it would be ineligible with that rule, yet all the 86's, 240's, etc, etc, would be just fine.

Now it's your turn to come up with an intelligent rebutal, if you can. Don't just make a statement that opposes someone with no argument behind it.

The Viper is tube frame construction from the factory. The VCC and Viper both have the same tube frame constuction. Typically when a rule is set that says no tube frame cars, it's meant to discourange people to convert a sheetmetal car to tubeframe, ala, Nascar.

S13 are about 2800 lbs. S14 are about 2900lbs stock. 2,380lb or 2,465. Viper Coupe is 3380. VCC is 2995. It's 88% of the stock vehicle... So, your 85% rule doesn't limit the Viper.

Since the structure of the Viper is the same as the VCC, all suspension mounting point is the same. This is a suspension that's designed for cornering grip, and not much expense spared. Can't say much for a 240SX where it' rear subframe could use some rework to dial out the squat geometry. So, it doesn't hurt the VCC.

Please don't try to bring attitude to this discussion. Your statement is made without really knowing what's going on, and how each car is built. Don't make a fool out of yourself by wanting to show off by putting that last statement in your post. Way too silly.

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Originally posted by malcolm
exactly. the VCC is a tube-frame car, and that should not be allowed. If they want to build up a normal viper, let them. That would be good for the sport of drifting. I don't like it that when it is just starting off, Dodge and GM are dumping a ton of money into it and making it really difficult for up-and-comers to show what they're capable of.

As for the GTO, perhaps it should not be legal either. Have you gone to their site and seen the body-in-white they started with? That thing rivals the preparation of any Super-Touring or GT car in the world right now. With slightly different suspension settings, that car could probably go out and fare quite well in the Speed GT series.

Would it really be fair if someone took a Supra, lightened it to 2300 lbs, put in a 750 bhp motor, giagantic tires, etc, etc, and drifted that? No, it wouldn't. But someone should build a beast like that because the rules need to be changed for some of these events to make it a little more friendly to the little guys. Right now there aren't enough big teams to make it worth catering to them.

Once we get 20+ tuning companies or factories into drifting, THEN they should start to cater to them, and have technical meetings with the teams. Until then, they should make the playing field even enough to allow lower budget teams, or independent drivers, to be able to compete.

I'm finding it shocking that many people don't realize the standard street/production Dodge Viper have been tube frame construction since it was first introduced back in the '90s. You call pull off all the body panels and still drive it around.

It's not a sheetmetal car like the GTO, 240SX, etc.

As for the little guy, look at who won the Laguna Seca shootout... Enough said...

[malcolm]

man, had you brought that up, I would have been fine with it. Don't just refute someone's claim without argument. You did not come up with an intelligent rebutal the first time, leaving me to think you were somewhat intellectually less that you are. Sorry for the insult, but you didn't show me any proof otherwise until after I stated that.

The Competition uses the street car's frame

source: http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1

I stand corrected. However, I don't believe the suspension mounting points on the chassis are exactly the same as the regular production viper (again, not sure, but I doubt that a race-intended suspension set up would be the same as a gentle road version. The regular viper would likely be more sympathetic to a softer suspension set up, ie less bump steer with 4" of bump whereas a racing version would never go beyond 2" of bump in normal race conditions). I am quite sure that the geometry would be different.

Since the structure of the Viper is the same as the VCC, all suspension mounting point is the same

sorry, but that argument doesn't hold true. Look at the GTO. It is a production-based chassis as well, and they changed the mounting points. BMW, Audi, etc, changed the mounting points on their GT cars for Speed GT, thus raising the costs by a very large amount through R&D. I can't see that a racing car would have the exact same geometry as a road version.

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Are you refusing to accept that the base structure of the Viper is the same as the VCC?

Yes, the spring rates are different, but the geometry is still the same.

That's why the VCC only $140k fully loaded. It's based on the production coupe. The extra cost went into the engine, transmission, the control system (Motec, iirc), full dry-carbon construction body panel.

Why would I need to show you proof in the first place? Well informed folks knows what I'm talking about. Only misinformed folks would take offense.

As for you example about the GTO, M3, etc, you are forgetting another big important point. Those are sheet metal cars, and modified to be partial tubeframe. That's when they change the suspension.

The Viper is built as a GT type car in the first place without much compromise. Nothing major is changed.

Please, read up more on race car construction, the viper, the VCC, etc. It would help you out.

[noobster]

Originally posted by malcolm
the VCC is a tube-frame car, and that should not be allowed. If they want to build up a normal viper, let them. That would be good for the sport of drifting.

ummm....the production viper is tube frame. the only changes to the VCC from a tubing standpoint is the addition of a FIA rollcage.

Originally posted by malcolm
I don't like it that when it is just starting off, Dodge and GM are dumping a ton of money into it and making it really difficult for up-and-comers to show what they're capable of.

Did you not watch the laguna seca event! Gushi killed it!

And what, u think the D1 cars dont have a ton of money poured into their cars??? cmon man. dont u think they've had this same discussion in japan on the message boards about the little guys competing with the d1 drivers in Japan? its tough for the little guys to compete in the high profile series...i agree. but thats why there are tons of other drift events and series that are more grassroots!

Originally posted by malcolm
As for the GTO, perhaps it should not be legal either. Have you gone to their site and seen the body-in-white they started with? That thing rivals the preparation of any Super-Touring or GT car in the world right now.

Yeah, and? GM wants to be competitve. Can you blame them? I cant wait to hear the roar of that V8 competing against the sweet sounds of the turbo cars. This is a great rivalry. whats wrong with that? isnt that good for the sport?

Originally posted by malcolm
Would it really be fair if someone took a Supra, lightened it to 2300 lbs, put in a 750 bhp motor, giagantic tires, etc, etc, and drifted that? No, it wouldn't.

Why not? that would be awesome! supras rule! But why do you think thats unfair? do u understand that drifting is NOT ALL ABOUT HORSEPOWER. do you know that the viper and GTO weigh a lot more than their competitors? do you know how inertia effects the degree of difficulty in drifting? if u did, i dont think ud be saying what ur saying. by the way, ijust read an article that said the GTO weighs 2700lbs. wow!!! talk about shaving weight!

Originally posted by malcolm
Once we get 20+ tuning companies or factories into drifting, THEN they should start to cater to them, and have technical meetings with the teams. Until then, they should make the playing field even enough to allow lower budget teams, or independent drivers, to be able to compete.

so, are the companies supposed to wait for one another, band together, and time exactly when they are all going to enter???? dude, its got to start somewhere. companies aren't going to wait for eachother and enter at the same time. its business. like it or not.

[nissanguy_24]

Gentlemen please do not make me lock this thread.

The viper may have a stock tube frame, but thats why we should ask our selfs if the viper is even fair because of it. To me if the rules state no tube frame cars that means no tube frame cars. How would you guys feel if nissan got into drifting, went back, designed 25 tubeframe S13 or S15 chassis type cars sold them on the street for 100 grand to CEOs and *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*, then brought out there "production" Silvia Competition Coupe.

Im a nissan fan and i wouldnt think it was fair. The thing is Formula D already has rules in place to keep these cars more or less street cars, but it has failed to enforce them. The legality of the Viper is in question, but not the GTO, its a street car, yet it broke two rules in creating it. They dropped 800-900 lbs off that thing making it somewere under 80 percent its full weight. And changed the mounting points.

It seems like Formula D failed to enforce its rule when a big factory backed team broke them. These rules arent to make it fair for the factory backed team its to keep drifting as close to the grass roots level as possible and keep it away from nascar type events. Even of 20 factory backed teams stepped in i hope to hell the rules only get stricter. Factors have a way of pushing the rules to the limits to win. I dont believe this to be in either the style of drifting or very sporting. Drifting is about the driver not the car and it needs to stay that way.

I dont know if Formula D would allow a team with out much money to break its rules it has already set up, but i really hope they tighten down next year, not just get rid of the rules all together.

[nissanguy_24]

Just an addition because noobster brought up that D1 cars are getting pretty high up there in price and stuff too. Everything i say i feel exactly the same way about the D1. I'd like to see the cars retain there street heritage. To me this arguement has nothing to do with the country the cars come from.