Why on Earth a VIPER?

[cjm]

Viper Competition Coupe frame



More info from official site: http://www.vipercompetitioncoupe.com/

[nissanguy_24]

I think my past post in this thread and others shows the nature of my suposed bias against Domestic cars in drifting. And i really don't think i need to defend my self against such an assumption.

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Then discuss why it's irrelavent then... (talking about VCC vs SR swapped 240SX in terms of legality).

[Slonie]

I just want to eat crow for saying the VCC wasn't tube frame. It's still "production chassis based," but as many people have pointed out, the production Viper chassis is also tube/box frame.



I won't even get into this morass of whether it should be legal or not for F-D. I will, however, rally for tube frame cars when I bring a Caterham out!

[cjm]

Tube Frame production cars

So, talking about tube frame vehicles, how about the Noble M12 and Lotus Elise?

Noble M12 (see www.1gracing.com for North American version)


Lotus Elise (see www.LotusCars.com)



More info on the technology: http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elis...echnology.html
Here are some wrecked ones: http://www.wreckedexotics.com/elise/

These are both street legal but they use tub or tub frames with body panels instead of unibody construction.

[cjm]

Pic of Lotus "Tub". Original site wouldn't let me link to it.

[Ghost of Duluth]

Hmmm, interesting. Both of you are right. SMC is right that the 240sx is street legal and here in Tennessee, I can register one on the street. Also he is right about the rules. Those are the same basic rules of homologation. That's why so many of a certain car is produced to make it legal for the class they are going for. Such as the 959 for Group B and the RS200. They had to make 200 units to classified in Group B. Those are FIA rules. There had to be 5000 units for Group N and 2500 for Group A. So many units had to be produced in street trim. 50 of the RS200's were full blown 750hp terrors and the rest were toned down for the street. So the car has to be SOLD street legal, meaning the chassis would have to be street legal at the time of sale. The VCC uses the same chassis as the Viper but the car that that chassis is in was not SOLD street legal making it inneffective for FD.

97s14 dude is correct in saying that the SR20 swap is illegal in an EPA sense. It was never in the US market and therefore technically is illegal.

I would say that the SR20 thing is nit-picking though. There really is no rule about power plant changes in FD. If there was, then there would be a viable arguement on that. Also eveyone has to understand that this really is the the beginning of Drifting in the US, sanctioned stuff at least. The rules are getting fine tuned, sure they are mostly the same rules that they use in SCCA but they have to modify them for Drifting. I really don't care one way or the other if the Viper is there or not, it just gives people a target to aim for. Get better and take it out. It's not the car that people should fear, it's the man behind the wheel. Alex Pfieffer proved that at Atlanta.

['97 S14 SE Turb]

That's the point, the rules aren't well sorted out.

The rule requiring street legal car is already silly. I'm merely pointing out the same logic applies to the hoopla over the VCC's factory base chassis (which is tube frame).

So, the bottom line, what's the big deal over that the fact that it's tube framed? It's built that way. I don't see people complaining about the 2 Cobra kit cars that competed @ Atlanta. Those are full up tube frame cars as well. So, pointing out the double standards being applied.

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Originally posted by Slonie
I just want to eat crow for saying the VCC wasn't tube frame. It's still "production chassis based," but as many people have pointed out, the production Viper chassis is also tube/box frame.

I won't even get into this morass of whether it should be legal or not for F-D. I will, however, rally for tube frame cars when I bring a Caterham out!

The folks with the Cobra kit cars already beat you to it. Those are full up tube frame. More so than the VCC.

[Slonie]

Well, it'd be suicide to take it out on a tandem run anyway

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Originally posted by Ghost of Duluth
Hmmm, interesting. Both of you are right. SMC is right that the 240sx is street legal and here in Tennessee, I can register one on the street. Also he is right about the rules. Those are the same basic rules of homologation. That's why so many of a certain car is produced to make it legal for the class they are going for. Such as the 959 for Group B and the RS200. They had to make 200 units to classified in Group B. Those are FIA rules. There had to be 5000 units for Group N and 2500 for Group A. So many units had to be produced in street trim. 50 of the RS200's were full blown 750hp terrors and the rest were toned down for the street. So the car has to be SOLD street legal, meaning the chassis would have to be street legal at the time of sale. The VCC uses the same chassis as the Viper but the car that that chassis is in was not SOLD street legal making it inneffective for FD.

97s14 dude is correct in saying that the SR20 swap is illegal in an EPA sense. It was never in the US market and therefore technically is illegal.

I would say that the SR20 thing is nit-picking though. There really is no rule about power plant changes in FD. If there was, then there would be a viable arguement on that. Also eveyone has to understand that this really is the the beginning of Drifting in the US, sanctioned stuff at least. The rules are getting fine tuned, sure they are mostly the same rules that they use in SCCA but they have to modify them for Drifting. I really don't care one way or the other if the Viper is there or not, it just gives people a target to aim for. Get better and take it out. It's not the car that people should fear, it's the man behind the wheel. Alex Pfieffer proved that at Atlanta.

More on street legal chassis. Production car chassis are street legal. We all know that very well.

When you weld in a roll cage, it's not longer consider street legal, using DOT guidelines.

The VCC's base chassis is a street legal chassis. The VCC's version has a FIA legal racing cage incorporated, plus the X brace over the engine. Following the standard logic of streetlegal, yes, that would make the VCC's chassis not legal.

So, what does that leave the GTO, 240SX, etc sheetmetal cars with welded in roll cage?

Yup, they are all illegal, according to the definition established by Federal laws.

So, what's the merit in arguing whether the VCC is street legal???

As for emission, Federal standards superceeds state standard. All vehicle sold in the United States must meet the federal standard, as well as in operation. It's up to the state to enforce the standard. Some states are strict (following actual Federal requirements), while some, without polution issues, are lax. In either case, SR20DET is still illegal for use on public roads. It doesn't matter if folks in Kentucky, Florida, wherever, not car, it stills violates federal laws. And hence, illegal.

The last GTS-R was homologalized. They have street version sold, though mostly in Europe. BTW, it's a FIA thing. FD/SCCA doesn't follow that rule, so it's pointless in this discussion.

If Dodge goes back to Le Mans racing with the VCC in the GT2 class, they will get it homologalized. So, moot point.

As for saying SR is nitpicking, it's to make a point, showing that the rules needs more work, and for those of us that aren't directly involved, cannot be making judgements. My same argument regarding SR can be said for the VCC. It's version of the engine is not street legal as well. But do you see my point?

[Feint]

Not to make things more complicated,but what if people were to run street legal cars from Japan (Canada).What may be legal in the United States can be legal in some cases for Canada,which Formula D is open to competitors from.

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Well, Fixmer is running a Japanese Spec 180SX in F-D... So, draw your own conclusion.

AFAIK, PacificRim racing's S13 is also JDM spec.

[Ghost of Duluth]

I think you like debating to hear yourself talk honestly but thats neither here nor there. If you are not a lawyer, you should be and if you are, i'd hate to be the judge at one of your trials.

The rules say that the car has to be street legal. Street legal means that you can get a tag for it and drive it legally. You can get a tag and drive that 240, no matter what engine you have in it, you can't with the Viper. So really right there that part of your debate is moot. You can also pass federal emissions with an SR, so that part of the arguement is also moot. So it really boils down to whether or not a cop will haul you in if you drive it on the street. Drive an SR20 240 on the street and adds are you will drive away from a speeding ticket, drive a VCC and odds are your wife will come pick you up at the pokey and your car will be impounded.

If we looked at things like you did, then no cars would be able to compete unless you rented them from Thrifty. If engine swaps and roll bars make cars illegal, then we are all through. Modding an engine makes cars illegal if you really read into the EPA laws.

Oh yea, I was explaining how homologation laws work, not applyin them to the SCCA rules.

[noobster]

Originally posted by '97 S14 SE Turb
Well, Fixmer is running a Japanese Spec 180SX in F-D... So, draw your own conclusion.

AFAIK, PacificRim racing's S13 is also JDM spec.

now thats an interesting point.

But no where in the rule book (at least that I found) does it say that the car must be "street legal." It says it needs to be a production car.

Again, here are the RULES right out of the rulebook:

Eligible Vehicles:

A)Any 2 or 4 door coupe, sedan or sports car.
B)Must be a production car with a minimum build run of 250 units
C)Must maintain original unibody or frame
D)Vehicles that do not meet the above criteria must be approved by the series.


ALSO in the rule book! :

1.1.5: FINALITY of INTERPRETATION and APPLICATION
SCCA Pro officials shall make the interpretation, and application, of the rules. Their decisions shall be final and binding. In order to promote the sport of automotive competition, to achieve prompt finality in competition results, and in consideration of the numerous benefits to them, all participants and entrants, (including competitors and officials) expressly agree that:

• Determinations by SCCA Pro officials are non-litigable;

• They will not initiate or maintain litigation of any kind against SCCA, SCCA Pro, or anyone acting on behalf of SCCA, or SCCA Pro, to reverse, or modify, such determinations, or to seek to recover damages, or other relief allegedly incurred, or required, as a result of such determination and;

1.1.5.1: SCCA Pro reserves the right to amend, or modify, the rules at any time (including individual series regulations and event supplementary regulations) via Supplementary Regulations, Tech Bulletins, Competitor Bulletins, or Pro Racing Memos.