Why on Earth a VIPER?

[Ghost of Duluth]

I agree. I think that the bigger they are the harder they fall. The Viper is todays American supercar. It took the place of the Vettes day one. Although I don't think it's legal, let it run. The funnest battle I ever watched was Alex vs Sam. Good stuff. It makes for stiff competition.

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Ghost,

You are ignoring D. It's basically a waiver that F-D gives to the VCC... If they allow the car, then it's legal. That's what statement D states specifically.

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by '97 S14 SE Turb
Ghost,

You are ignoring D. It's basically a waiver that F-D gives to the VCC... If they allow the car, then it's legal. That's what statement D states specifically.

I have to say i hate that rule more then any thing. It does nothing but breed trouble and politics. Not tomention corruption. Anyone with enough money or influence could sway the series into aproving whatever they want.

If you are reading this Formula D, i hope next year you make some revisions to your rules, if nothing else delete your rule D. Because if your going to have Rule D you might as well not have any rules and just deside what can race on the spot.

[spock]

Do I smell a little bribery by Mopar? Sniff! Sniff!

[malcolm]

It is [pointless] when both parties never expand on reasoning to support their thoughts

exactly, that's why I got a little testy when you just said I was wrong, and didn't offer any reasoning. Sorry if I offended you...

Are you refusing to accept that the base structure of the Viper is the same as the VCC?

dude, I just said above that "I stand corrected." I admit, they are tube-frame. BUT, I just don't believe they have the same suspenion geometry.

As for you example about the GTO, M3, etc, you are forgetting another big important point. Those are sheet metal cars, and modified to be partial tubeframe. That's when they change the suspension.

Wrong, they are totally sheet-metal cars. AC Schnitzer designs the optimum suspension points, and PTG builds the cars to their specs. Apart from the cage, and a bit of bracing, the cars are totally sheet-metal. The M3 is built with as much compromise as the Viper, and if they can alter the geometry and gain some performace, I am sure the Viper can too. It's like saying the Corvette I race and the C5-R have the same geometry... Not even close. Stock suspension will always be aimed for the road, and will not be optimal for the track.

Please, read up more on race car construction, the viper, the VCC, etc. It would help you out.

I am well aware of racecar construction and vehicle dynamics... I was not aware, however, of the viper vs. the VCC.

But why do you think thats unfair? do u understand that drifting is NOT ALL ABOUT HORSEPOWER

did you not read what I wrote? the first thing I put was weight, then power, then tire size. had I said power only, you would have been quite right to flame me for that. However, I mentioned it second, amidst other variables.

Factories have a way of pushing the rules to the limits to win.

exactly... look at all the classes/series that Porsche, alone, has killed. Can-Am, almost all the FIA Groups... Look up the 935/78.... Talk about taking rules to the limit. The rule said that they were able to cut the side of the chassis, with an exhaust hole as an example. They took that, and sectioned the entire car to make it quite a bit lower. Brilliant.

So, talking about tube frame vehicles, how about the Noble M12 and Lotus Elise?

Just so you know, the Elise is a monocoque, not a tube-frame. I am not sure about the Noble though...

That's why so many of a certain car is produced to make it legal for the class they are going for.

interesting story: Porsche realized a rule like this for prototypes, and noticed that they make the required amount anyway over a season, so they just built all 25 at once, and the FIA had a bird. A total prototype, but it was considered homologated because they built enough of them. More companies could do the same, and I think this is what nissanguy is getting after. It could get quite costly. Then you'll see manufacturers drop out. Then the series will die. If they tighten up the rules, it should be ok...

If we looked at things like you did, then no cars would be able to compete unless you rented them from Thrifty.

haha, that's an awesome quote. thanks man.

Oh, and I am too lazy to find the quote now, but no, I didn't see gushi beat the viper... I don't even know when the events are. I don't follow it closely. Anyway, 97S14, if I offended you, sorry... I was just not pleased that you dismissed my argument without anything to back it up with, even if I was wrong. Haha, this has been beaten to death, and I don't really know what I can argue anymore.... :P

I just don't want to see $250k cars, with sequential 'boxes, totally built chassis, etc, when guys have to stick with cars within their budgets. And if you say that driver's skill matters most, I won't argue, but it's obvious that the car matters a little bit. You're not going to win a competition in a stock miata, no matter who you are. Moreover, anyone would look better in a better car, period. Therefore the car does have an effect. If it didn't everyone would be out there in the cheapest cars available.

[my 1 88 u]

I wish we could here more pro's comments on this issue.

[noobster]

Originally posted by Ghost of Duluth
Wrong. Seems you have been reading the wrong posts.

The VCC is a special 25 unit production Viper much like the GTS-R was.

bro, the VCC is based off the production viper. it uses the same frame. the production viper has a build run of 3000+. the VCC is a trim level off the production viper. that's why it meets that requirement.

sorry to beat a dead horse.

what we need is for their to be some sort of explanation by scca, fd, and/or mopar.

[AtroXR7]

this thread really turned technical. I kinda got slammed for saying this in another thread. But when they turned drifting into a competative sport... what did they expect to happen, have everyone keep running cheap import cars that the scene was started on... yeah right, they're gonna push the limits, and bend every rule they can to get there. Thats the nature of competition. In drag racing ppl still fight over whether nitrous is cheating or not. Tho I think rules should be strictly enforced, technicallity or not. Whats the point in having rules if you're gonna let things slip through the cracks.

[INFO]

Please read this interview.
http://www.drifting.com/forums/showt...&threadid=5505

"Many teams were concerned about the Viper having a tube chassis; can you explain this?"

When some other Formula D teams had learned that Lateral G Racing was introducing a Competition Coupe Viper in this series, they where concerned that we had an advantage because it's a tube chassis car. The Competition Coupe Viper is a tube chassis car, but it is no different than the chassis's that are found on the Vipers at Dodge dealerships. The Competition Coupe is a factory modified production car, bottom line. But let's look at drifting events anyway; we are not racing laps at over 150mph to a checkered flag where a tube chassis may be an advantage because it can shave 10ths of seconds on each corner. In drifting our average corner speeds are around 35-40mph, plus our Viper weighs almost 3000lbs, which is at least 500lbs heavier than our competitors' vehicles. When the Viper is carrying 500lbs more weight into a corner going 35-40mph, how is a tube chassis going to help? The judges need to take this into consideration because we feel this is not an advantage by any means. It's a great deal of work to drift a 3000lb car irrespective of the chassis, but Samuel is a talented driver and that is what drifting is about, driver skill.

An explanation for the argument against tube chassis cars is that it allows .... (VISIT THE LINK BELOW FOR MORE INFO.)

http://www.drifting.com/forums/showt...&threadid=5505

[clay payton]

HHAHAHA WHO ARE THEY KIDDING?!?

if that car didnt have an advantage, and it's build/frame wasnt an advantage, WHY would they even bother with it?!?


the D1 rules say that the car has to maintain it's unibody struction and no tube frame extensions are allowed.

even though this is a factory modified car, it's still a unibody car with tube frame extensions, in essense. why should it matter that the mods were made by the factory, that shouldnt exclude them from following the rules.


I think it would have been considerably more sportman like, and more true to the drifting scene if they took a unibody viper and built it up within what's allowable in the rules.

[noobster]

Originally posted by clay payton
HHAHAHA WHO ARE THEY KIDDING?!?




the D1 rules say that the car has to maintain it's unibody struction and no tube frame extensions are allowed.

THEY AREN'T RACING THE CAR IN D1 BRO! (yet)

Formula D rules are different...obviously. That's why the car competes. geez.

[clay payton]

ohh, i thought they were gonna compete in the american D1 as well as formula D.

my bad

[noobster]

Originally posted by clay payton
ohh, i thought they were gonna compete in the american D1 as well as formula D.

That remains to be seen...it shall be interesting tho.

Peace bro,

[marshun]

if they let that car into D1 it will be interesting.

cause ueo will take it out. hehe.

[Feint]

It violates 3 D1 regulations outside of the tubeframe ordeal

No turn signals(could be wrong on this one)
No cat
Not street legal