What is a real drift?

[jboss]

ok...
a drift is the fastest way through a turn... correct? YES
Through SOME turns---yes

sliding is not a drift... correct? YES
NO

Difference between a slide and a drift...
Although drifting is having your car sideways through a turn, it is not considered "slliding"...
But it REQUIRES sliding so it MUST be considered sliding

How is this you say?
Only through mobia-strip reasoning...

Sliding through a turn involves getting your car sideways through a turn,
mostly agreed--although sliding does not have to be sideways

howver drifting has more to it than that.
OK---show me. I'm still not convinced

Drifting is sliding,
But I thought Drifting WAS NOT sliding

but in a controlled motion,
Ok, your getting closer. It is a type of sliding....

while maintaining the lines used during racing.
Then you just lost me here. Drift lines and racing lines are only the same in rare instances. Racers rarely drift because the racing line is faster for most turns. (and on a side note---drifters rarely race).

The rear end of a car is moving around the turn faster than the rest of the car,
Agreed--it is taking a larger arc so it is moving faster (but not necessarily in the right direction)

therfore maintaining a faster speed during the turn,
OK, so the rear end is moving faster during the turn---we already established that. If you are trying to imply that because the rear end is moving faster than the front end of the car, that the car is actually going to be faster coming out of the turn you have missed a logical step----that step being that it will only be faster IF the front of the car is traveling at the same rate it would be traveling if the car were at the limit and not sliding trough the turn.

allowing for a HIGHER exit speed.
See above.....

While sliding, there is no set line for a turn,
So, sliding is random, haphazard, uncontrolled??? I doubt it!

thus there is no control over the cars cornering speed.
And if sliding is not random, haphazard and uncontrolled then, THERE IS some control over cornering speed.

So while sliding, you actually lose speed while going through a turn, and drifting you maintain speed while cornering.
In conclusion...you have not actually proven this much less have you provided a theoretical basis that holds water for such assertions.

Now on to you points about FF

[Ghost of Duluth]

You said it right there.

Drifting is sliding but in a controlled motion. Thats all JBoss has been saying. A drift is a slide. Just a controlled one.

As for the Front wheel drive. I agree. You can drift a FF car. No arguements there.

Lets all go to bed and put this to rest.

[jboss]

Now... time for the one that everyone is going to *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* about...lol
Front Wheel Drive Drifts...
No bitching, I actually think you hit the nail on the head for the most part.

Although it is possible to drift in a front wheel drive car,
yep

it is not as easy,
yep

or effective as that of a rear wheel drive vehicles drift.
Don't know what you mean by effective.

Why is this?
See above

FWD means Front wheel Drive...
uh huh

A front wheel drive car means that the car is being pulled while driving, does it not?
Sure. But, remember, all the other forces act on a front drive the same way they do any othe configuration. Weight transfer being what is really important for drifting.

While cornering at high speed in a front wheel drive car you will realize that there is a significant amount of understeer.
Most cars in stock form have a significant amount of understeer---they come that way form the factory for "safety reasons". this is not a phenomenon associated with only fwd. It is just the case that it is very difficult to correct understeer in a fwd by pressing the gas. Rear drives can overcome understeer with throttle by breaking the rear tires loose---but this is not the only or most efficient way if you are trying to go fast.

Applying throttle (in ANY car) shifts weight to the rear of the car increasing the grip on those wheels and lessening the grip on the front wheels. this is why some of you may have noticed that if your rear drive car is understeering, applying throttle does not always help--sometimes it makes it worse. Unles you apply enough throttle to break traction the car will understeer even worse than before. (this is of course assuming the rear tires were not sliding before you apply throttle). This is why applying throttle in a front drive will always create more understeer---you can never gas it enough to break the rears loose. DUH

I could go on if anyone likes about shifting weight to the front and techniques for doing so and why you want to shift weight to the front to go fast instead of just using power-on-oversteer in a rear drive......

If this occurs, it means that the front of the car is cornering faster than the rear of the car.
The front is MOVING faster than the rear--yes

Now drifting... "the rear of the car is cornering faster than the front of the car.."
OK we will go with that definition---the rear of the car is moving faster through the corner than the front....

how are you going to fix this problem?
the problem that the front drive is doing just the opposite---jsut a clarification

Use the E-Brake.. while pulling on the ebrake to induce a slide for the FWD car, you will be slowing down the car,
Why use the e-brake? I know it is the easiest way, but there are other ways of doing it without causing such a dramatic effect on the cars speed and attitude.

and you will have to maintain balance of the car in order to keep the "drift" going,
Yep, this is the hard part for FF

and that is why it is hard to "drift" a front wheel drive car. Notice i did not say that it was impossible, just very difficult. Lots of people can do it, and they are commended for it.
Agreed, it is difficult to MAINTAIN a drift in FF. Certainly not impossible--but it would be pretty slow too.

I dont really see the point in it, except that they are making due with what they have.
FF are very competitive with FR in most motorsports that they compete side-by-side in. Heck look at the wrc super 1600 and other rally spec class racers.

Good, i am glad not everyone here is trying to scare away the FF's. They are certainly nothing to snivel at in the speed department.

[Akira714]

IMO, yes FF can drift. But RWD drifting is more popular because it can be controlled better. Thus it can be sustained longer without having the driver fight with the wheel. Also, that some RWD drifting techniques can produce drifts at higher speeds compared to the E-brake technique.

[REBEL-D]

a drift is the fastest way through a turn... correct? YES

Absolutly wrong!!! I am suprised someone would actually believe this to be true let alone make a statment as such?

drifting - sliding - drifting - sliding?

Keep it simple and stop trying to spit hairs for the sake of argument.

A drift is anytime a driver intentionally breaks traction and forces the car into a controlled slide. What ever the technique used to acheive this (feint/clutch/pendulum/lift-off etc) in whatever car (FF/FR/MR) makes no difference unless you are in competition. Only then is is more benificial to have FR.

I get the impression there are many virtual drifters on this forum who sit and theorize all day long. People need to get out and drive, experience it feel it. It's the only way to understand it.

Drifting is a modern term for powersliding as defined by the recent D1 competition IE: A Drift Competition is solely for the purpose of demonstrating exagerated full-lock powerslides and the drivers ability to transition corners whilst following a race line.

A powerslide whilst still spectacular is the fastest way around a dirt/gravel/snow/ice corner as seen in rallies for over sixty years.

A four wheel drift on tarmac is subtle but common in racing as drivers are constantly driving at the limit of the tires.

Unless you understand the fundamentals of racing a car you will never be any good at drifting a car at the end of the day.

[Feint]

Originally posted by Young Drifter
I give it up to MR drifters...I've heard it's the hardest style....

MR is not a style,its a drivetrain layout.

Turn the wheel one way real quick then flick it back the other way. No brakes involved. that way you lose no speed to brakes.

Somewhat,it varies.You'd probably want to use the brakes a little,unless suicide missions are your thing.

Scandinavian Flick

[Ghost of Duluth]

Heh I read that Scandinavian flick link and I have to disagree with something. Here it is.

# Stand on the brakes hard enough to lock up all four wheels. Don't forget to clutch in or else the engine will likely stall.
# Stay on the brakes to continue the slide, select a new gear and turn the wheel full lock in the opposite direction.
# When you're ready to turn release the brakes, the car should pivot around and face in the new direction of travel.

Stand on the brakes???? That defeats the whole purpose of the flick wouldn't you agree. "Staying on the brakes to continue the slide?" Once again defeating the entire purpose. Once you initiate the slide, inertia and momentum will carry it if you are at a high enough sped. "And when you are ready to turn release the brakes and the car SHOULD pivot around". With the brakes on you lose all semblence of control. If you release the brakes in the middle of a 4 wheel slide, odds are one set is going to grab, propelling you off the road at a high rate of speed. The purpose of the flick is to take a corner at a higher rate of speed, same as drifting. But instead of using the E-brake to start it, or straight power, you use inertia. Flicking the wheel to the left first unloads the suspension therefore making the car "light". Then the flick to the right should put the car into sideways motion.

This is all about weight transfer whether it be flicking or whatever. Here's a situation we put students through where I teach. Go around a corner at a set speed. 30 to 40 mph. Go around it with steady throttle, then go around it and let off in mid corner. Feel the difference. The weight transfers to the front when you let off the gas. The rear suspension unloads and the rear end gets light. Now do the same corner but hold you foot on the brake just enough to feel a little resistance. Hold gas and brake steady. Don't mash the brakes like you mash grandmas potatoes at Christmas but apply them til you feel the car settle. The car will take the corner more solidly and you have less lift. Reason being is that when you use the brake you compress the suspension causing the car to settle therefore decreasing body roll. You will corner faster this way than steady throttle alone. That is also how you do the movie stop I talked about the other day. That's what we teach it for.

But you could be right on one thing. Using a little brake isn't a bad thing. but when you enter the corner to perform the flick, you should already be at attack velocity. Not scrubbing speed off to set up. Should already be set up at the speed you need. (or think you need). Either way they are right on one thing.

"This technique requires the largest combination of sheer stupidity and balls our team can imagine". Not for the feint of heart.

[driftaholic]

re:

Originally posted by jboss
Now... time for the one that everyone is going to *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* about...lol
Front Wheel Drive Drifts...
No bitching, I actually think you hit the nail on the head for the most part.

Although it is possible to drift in a front wheel drive car,
yep

it is not as easy,
yep

or effective as that of a rear wheel drive vehicles drift.
Don't know what you mean by effective.

Why is this?
See above

FWD means Front wheel Drive...
uh huh

A front wheel drive car means that the car is being pulled while driving, does it not?
Sure. But, remember, all the other forces act on a front drive the same way they do any othe configuration. Weight transfer being what is really important for drifting.

While cornering at high speed in a front wheel drive car you will realize that there is a significant amount of understeer.
Most cars in stock form have a significant amount of understeer---they come that way form the factory for "safety reasons". this is not a phenomenon associated with only fwd. It is just the case that it is very difficult to correct understeer in a fwd by pressing the gas. Rear drives can overcome understeer with throttle by breaking the rear tires loose---but this is not the only or most efficient way if you are trying to go fast.

Applying throttle (in ANY car) shifts weight to the rear of the car increasing the grip on those wheels and lessening the grip on the front wheels. this is why some of you may have noticed that if your rear drive car is understeering, applying throttle does not always help--sometimes it makes it worse. Unles you apply enough throttle to break traction the car will understeer even worse than before. (this is of course assuming the rear tires were not sliding before you apply throttle). This is why applying throttle in a front drive will always create more understeer---you can never gas it enough to break the rears loose. DUH

I could go on if anyone likes about shifting weight to the front and techniques for doing so and why you want to shift weight to the front to go fast instead of just using power-on-oversteer in a rear drive......

If this occurs, it means that the front of the car is cornering faster than the rear of the car.
The front is MOVING faster than the rear--yes

Now drifting... "the rear of the car is cornering faster than the front of the car.."
OK we will go with that definition---the rear of the car is moving faster through the corner than the front....

how are you going to fix this problem?
the problem that the front drive is doing just the opposite---jsut a clarification

Use the E-Brake.. while pulling on the ebrake to induce a slide for the FWD car, you will be slowing down the car,
Why use the e-brake? I know it is the easiest way, but there are other ways of doing it without causing such a dramatic effect on the cars speed and attitude.

and you will have to maintain balance of the car in order to keep the "drift" going,
Yep, this is the hard part for FF

and that is why it is hard to "drift" a front wheel drive car. Notice i did not say that it was impossible, just very difficult. Lots of people can do it, and they are commended for it.
Agreed, it is difficult to MAINTAIN a drift in FF. Certainly not impossible--but it would be pretty slow too.

I dont really see the point in it, except that they are making due with what they have.
FF are very competitive with FR in most motorsports that they compete side-by-side in. Heck look at the wrc super 1600 and other rally spec class racers.

Good, i am glad not everyone here is trying to scare away the FF's. They are certainly nothing to snivel at in the speed department.

`

HOLY SH*T!!!! We fukin agreed on something ROFL

[Ghost of Duluth]

YAAAAAAAAAAAAYY!!!!! I am glad. Now let's all get together and work on that 4 deep drift where we all hold each others doors open.

[driftaholic]

re:

Originally posted by Ghost of Duluth
You said it right there.

Drifting is sliding but in a controlled motion. Thats all JBoss has been saying. A drift is a slide. Just a controlled one.

As for the Front wheel drive. I agree. You can drift a FF car. No arguements there.

Lets all go to bed and put this to rest.

looks like we have both been trying to argue the same point then huh..lmao

[Ghost of Duluth]

Yea we all rock. Group hug on that one. Now let's all go out and get some prostitutes. The good ones from Nevada.

[CRASHDRIVE]

I checked the meaning of "Drift" (through Webster.com) and this is what it means.
++++++++++++++++++++
Main Entry: 2drift
Function: verb
Date: circa 1600
intransitive senses
1 a : to become driven or carried along (as by a current of water, wind, or air) b : to move or float smoothly and effortlessly
2 a : to move along a line of least resistance b : to move in a random or casual way c : to become carried along subject to no guidance or control <the talk drifted from topic to topic>
3 a : to accumulate in a mass or become piled up in heaps by wind or water b : to become covered with a drift
4 : to vary or deviate from a set course or adjustment
transitive senses
1 a : to cause to be driven in a current b West : to drive (livestock) slowly especially to allow grazing
2 a : to pile in heaps b : to cover with drifts
- drift·ing·ly /'drif-ti[ng]-lE/ adverb
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If a form of force (in this case, momentum or intertia). It can be considered a Drift.

I hope this helps the whole argument about "A real drift"

[driftaholic]

re:

whores in Yokohama are pretty nice too Then we will be able to go th Japan... (&Back for me i dont know if any1 has been yet)LMAO

[CRASHDRIVE]

Oh yeah.. my personal say, which is true drifting and not..

2 category.
Show Drifting and Race Drifting.

Show Drifting:
This is longer drift style. I mean, your going sideways for a very long time.
(ex: power sliding, both tires are on a stop and the car just keeps moving due to its momentum).

Race Drifting:
Surpassing your cars ability in a turn and controlling that situation through out the whole turn.
(ex: Turning your car into the Apex, far beyond grip racing, this will cause your rear to loose traction and while loosing that traction, you are maintaining your speed and control).

If you look at some video's (Options and Drift Bible) they differ that difference.

[sobe]

Originally posted by CRASHDRIVE
Oh yeah.. my personal say, which is true drifting and not..

2 category.
Show Drifting and Race Drifting.

Show Drifting:
This is longer drift style. I mean, your going sideways for a very long time.
(ex: power sliding, both tires are on a stop and the car just keeps moving due to its momentum).

Race Drifting:
Surpassing your cars ability in a turn and controlling that situation through out the whole turn.
(ex: Turning your car into the Apex, far beyond grip racing, this will cause your rear to loose traction and while loosing that traction, you are maintaining your speed and control).

If you look at some video's (Options and Drift Bible) they differ that difference.

OWNAGE!!! GOOD STUFF DUDE

that was awesome i was thinking of doing that but *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*, way to go man!