(FEEDBACK) FORMULA D ATLANTA May 8-9th 2009

[courantcom]

To my knowledge, many series do their testing after an event. You can't blame FD for an infraction that they caught, whether it happened before or after a run/event. It's up to the drivers to follow the rules, no matter how small or insignificant they may seem. You guys are saying rules should be enforced, and that is what they are doing.

Actually, many series do their tire testing PRIOR to an event. They come to your individual pit in the paddock and ask you what tires you will be using for the event/day. They check the tires right there on the spot and apply a "seal" to them. When you pull up to the line, the starter looks for that seal. If it's there, you're free to go. If the seal is NOT there, you have a problem.

He did answer your questions, but you call his answers weak and unfounded, regardless of what he says. he doesn't even stand a chance.


A rule is a rule, it was up to him to follow it, regardless of whether he knew about his tire issues or not. You can't blame FD for enforcing the rules.

What if the rule is wrong, and a racer is WRONGFULLY disqualified? What if the rule is correct, but the testing procedure was wrong...what then? The rule doesn't say that an infraction will lead to disqualification, or a penalty. It's pretty much whatever they wanna do on the spot. Sounds fair?

Sure. But you downplay valid answers too.

No, I don't. Read my answers and words carefully. It's not my fault if their argument is unfounded/wrong or whatever.

I've seen first hand how sponsored drivers do not get special treatment. Believe it or not, some sponsors don't care about how well their driver's finish (to an extent of course). It's about visibility and connecting with the customers that buy their products. 1st place doesn't guarantee sales, and they aren't going to drop out of the series if their car isn't always on he podium.

You're misreading what I'm saying...I said that Formula D will not jeopardize entries from heavily sponsored cars because it may jeopardize their relationship with them in the present and in the future. If Formula D were to disqualify all the Toyo cars, do you think Toyo would be interested in sponsoring the series any further? If Formula D were to ban all Scions, do you think Toyota would continue to be interested in drifting at all?

This further proves my point that you like to make assumptions and invent conspiracies. I work for FD? Not a chance. Any idiot that walks through the paddocks can walk up to a driver/team/mechanic and ask for a ride in the car. Sometimes being female has its advantages. But nice try.

I think I've proved all my points with you. Normal "idiots" shouldn't be allowed rides in cars. I'm sure it's an insurance violation. I'm not even going to comment on you being a female and assuming that preferential treatment is more along your side.

Finally! A constructive question!

[courantcom]

So...today I had a bit of time on my hands to call up a few experts on the subject of durometers. I called Misty from Longacre and Daren from Intercomp. BOTH of them agreed that under no circumstances should durometer testing be done on a HOT tire because it will yield inconsistent results.

One more interesting scenario was introduced during my talks...

What if the tire was so worn down, the durometer was actually testing the hardness of the cords beneath the rubber?

Either way, aside from having the same person do the test on all the tires, durometer testing should be done in ambient temperature in the shade on an unmounted tire (tire pressures on a mounted tire can affect results).

So...here are Formula D's tire rules:

9.1 TIRE ELIGIBILITY
Tires must be DOT approved and have a minimum production run of 2,500 tires, tires available in the United States at regular retail outlets.
Tires must have a minimum tread wear rating of 140 (UTQG).
• 17 inch tires must have and MSRP of no more than $500.00
• 18 inch tires must have an MSRP of no more than $750.00.
• 19 inch tires must have and MSRP of no more than $1000.00.
Each entrant must declare their tire manufacturer as a part of the event entry form.

Not all the tires that show up on the Appendix C list can be easily bought at regular retail outlets. I don't think I need to mention specific brands and lines...but you all can just figure out what's easy to find and buy and what's not.

9.2 APPROVED TIRES
Only tires listed in Appendix C will be allowed. Teams who wish to use any size, model, or brand not specified here must file for petition and gain approval from FORMULA DRIFT.

9.3 MODIFICATIONS
9.3.1 Any attempt to modify tires in any manner is prohibited. “Grooving” or
“Shaving” of tires is prohibited.

Is a "used" tire considered shaved? Say for example, the tire is so used, it almost looks shaved. Can those be passable?

9.3.2 The use of traction compounds or any other substance that may alter the physical properties of the tire are prohibited.
9.3.3 Tire warmers or any other means of artificially altering the tire temperatures is prohibited.
9.3.4 Tires must meet a minimum durometer reading of 49, hot or cold, at all times during an EVENT, measured using an ISO868 or ASTM D2240 compliant
Type A durometer.

9.3.4 should be re-written. It should read "Tires must meet a minimum durometer reading of 49 during ambient temperatures unmounted in the shade at all times during an EVENT, measured using an ISO868 or ASTM D2240 complaint Type A durometer."

...that's if and only if Formula D doesn't start putting "seals" on tires prior to the cars actually going on course.

[NNog]

So...today I had a bit of time on my hands to call up a few experts on the subject of durometers.

by the looks of your report you had TOO MUCH time on your hands. very detailed tho. and also very interesting.

[courantcom]

A rule is a rule, it was up to him to follow it, regardless of whether he knew about his tire issues or not. You can't blame FD for enforcing the rules.

Why didn't FD enforce the rules on EVERYONE that violated them? Why did they only enforce them on Pat Mordaunt when several other competitors were also in violation. Should I be blaming FD for something else?

[courantcom]

by the looks of your report you had TOO MUCH time on your hands. very detailed tho. and also very interesting.

I drive a truck, and I can travel 800 miles or so without stopping for any reason. I go about 65 mph, and so...in that time, I can definitely make some phone calls and talk to people at length.

[courantcom]

Sorry just found this funny cause I used to work on these cars a lot back in the day. But its Karmann Ghia. No hyphen and two n's

I was pretty close...probably closer than a lot of other people. I actually owned a VW 412 back in the day. It was a hand-me-down from my parents. If you know Karmann Ghias then you may recognize that car too...1.8L aircooled rear engined 4 door car.

[courantcom]

Sorry to burst everyones bubble but lets face reality here. Formula Drift is in the business of making money$$$$ Thats all it is. It just happens to be that they make money on drifting.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Ryan, Jim and the rest of the FD staff are not die hard enthusiast like the rest of us. They are businessmen. Smart ones I would say.

Do you think they care about clipping points, angle and speed? Sorry they dont...
While the rest of us are on the edge of our seats cheering for our favorite driver and booing judges for poorly judged runs. They are talking to sponsors, securing media coverage, etc..

If I was them I would not want to piss off my meal tickets like Rhys, Sam, JR and Tanner.
Pat Mondurant? While he is a talented driver and deserves every accolade he receives he offers no financial gain to Formula Drift (No Disrespect to Pat).
Sad to say but Formula Drift is no longer a sport for privateers.

Drifting has officially reached corporate status. Sponsorship dollars are more important than clipping points.

Sad that some of us cant accept that fact.

We all know that Toyo was using a tire softer than specified. Hell so was Hankook and Falken for that matter.

FD knows that it has to enforce the rules but they also do a good job of interpreting the rules. I agree all teams using illegal tires should be DQ from the ATL event. But it wont happen.
Dollars and cents my friends. Remember guys this is a business.

It's a vicious cycle, but a cycle none the less. Racers-->Fans-->Sponsors-->Formula D. Racers bring in the fans. Fans bring in the sponsors (the more people, the more sponsors). Formula D puts them all together in one place, and with a lot of planning...you have an event. To me, the most important aspect of the cycle are the racers. Without the racers you can't have anything. The racers are what start everything.

So what does that mean? That means don't piss off the racers!

[OldSkool510]

Why didn't FD enforce the rules on EVERYONE that violated them? Why did they only enforce them on Pat Mordaunt when several other competitors were also in violation. Should I be blaming FD for something else?

Has FD come out publicly and stated that there were others that violated the rules yet or is that information private?

[OldSkool510]

So what does that mean? That means don't piss off the racers!

No, it means don't piss of "courantcom" or anyone else he's associated with. lol

[courantcom]

Has FD come out publicly and stated that there were others that violated the rules yet or is that information private?

Formula D itself hasn't made an "official statement", but key individuals from Formula D have already disclosed other teams that have had tires that failed their test. In a previous post, Formula D had mentioned two other teams that have failed the durometer test, but said that they were defeated so their entries were "moot".

...there were more.

[courantcom]

No, it means don't piss of "courantcom" or anyone else he's associated with. lol

Hahaha...no. It's like a coincidence or something that another one of "my boys" are being scrutinized...and yet again, I'm finding inconsistencies on top of inconsistencies.

By the way, what's "tiregate..."

[OldSkool510]

Hahaha...no. It's like a coincidence or something that another one of "my boys" are being scrutinized...and yet again, I'm finding inconsistencies on top of inconsistencies.

By the way, what's "tiregate..."

Haven't you heard of the WATERGATE scandal?

"The Watergate scandal was a political scandal during the presidency of Richard Nixon that resulted in the indictment and conviction of several of Nixon's closest advisors, and ultimately his resignation on August 9, 1974."

[courantcom]

Haven't you heard of the WATERGATE scandal?

"The Watergate scandal was a political scandal during the presidency of Richard Nixon that resulted in the indictment and conviction of several of Nixon's closest advisors, and ultimately his resignation on August 9, 1974."

Of course I have heard of the Watergate scandal...but I didn't correlate the two. It's not really the same. I mean, it's almost a well known fact that every single presidential campaign finds a way to break into the opposition's offices...just that Nixon's people got caught, and they made a big deal about it.

Pat wasn't trying to cheat...he wasn't trying to break the rules. In fact, he thought we was within the rules. It's not even the same -- not even close.

[tyndago]

http://www.ptc1.com/durometers_306RL.htm

"Record the hardness and temperature for future reference. Readings are normally taken from 70-77 degrees Fahrenheit, a surface thermometer such as our Model 315F, can be used to measure the tire’s temperature. "

Some Sprint car guys rules - http://www.jacksonspeedway.net/PDF_F...les%202009.pdf

"Right rear tire must be a minimum 45 durometer compound. Tire durometer check should be done at least fifteen (15) minutes after the races to allow for cool down."

[PeakPerformance]

To Victor and Pat

Victor,

I am truly disappointed with your behavior on this forum once again. I rarely post on here, but there are few threads that just require my attention. I have tried to read all your posts, but since you post so many times it is really hard to keep up.

I am not stating a side on the tire DQ situation, nor do I know all the details to asses a proper judgment, so I am not addressing this issue at this time. But I am reprimanding you on your actions on this forum. I understand once again that you are voicing your opinion on this forum and trying to drop knowledge on this community at the expense of our sport. I believe that your actions are really hurtful to the FD community and not constructive, even though you may feel otherwise. I am not judging your intent, because I am hoping your intent is for positive change, but I would ask you to reconsider your approach. Your words and actions are really bringing a negative picture to drifting and FD and I hope that is not your purpose here. If it is, I think you will really upset a lot of people.

I understand that you feel strongly about the current situation with FD, but do you really think that this is the right way to resolve the situation? I wish that you would reconsider, because all my dealings with FD have been pretty fair and they have offered an open door. I have the ability to go to Jim and Ryan (co-owners) and voice my complaints in a professional manner befitting this sport. I think if you have a real issue with whatever you feel is unfair, why not approach them and resolve things like adults. Personally, if I was either one of them, I would be pretty upset at you, but lucky you are dealing with them, not me.

Also consider a couple of things; first off, you know they can easily kick you off the FD circuit. They could easily show you or anyone else in the series the boot, there are no rules forcing them to allow you access. It's their court, so they make the rules. I doubt they would do that, but why would you even want to be someone they consider a liability or a major pain in the *Censored**Censored**Censored*. Believe it or not, the FD series will go on without you or me, even Ryan or Jim, the sport is above that. If you stopped towing cars to the track, do you think those teams would just stop racing? I am sure they would find a way to the track with our without you.

Another thing, your company Emergency hookers does benefit from this series, does it not? When FD is doing well and there are a lot of teams in search of transport, does it not benefit you directly or indirectly, right? Well I would assume that the future and health of FD would be of best interest to you. Not only have Jim, Ryan and the FD staff been pretty good to me and drifting overall, I would consider them to be my friends and probably yours as well. I would lastly assume that since you know them on a level beyond just business you would want to shed the most positive light and encourage the best outcome for everyone.

Pat M, I have seen you since you were probably 16 and grow up before my very eyes. I tease you about being young, but now you are a man. I think you got shafted last year in Atlanta against JR, but you were a man about it. This is a judged sport, and people make good and bad calls and it is an opinion, it’s not perfect. I thought you understood that last year, I believed that you had the heart of a champion; I was very impressed in fact. But I am saddened and disappointed in your behavior this past weekend. I am not sure of all the details and clearly don't understand everything that happened, nor can explain it to you. But I do know you were not acting the way a future champion would, and was that the best way to resolve your situation with FD. I am sure if you were to appeal and explain your side and listen to their story, you might have a better understanding of what is going on. Then you can plead your case to FD and I am sure they would try to resolve this situation in the fairest way possible.

Pat and Victor, please sit back and think about all this before you act. I am sure that you will come to a good conclusion that will benefit yourself and work things out with FD in a professional manner. I think if you keep talking smack about FD, your chances of negotiation and opportunities with them will diminish. I am sure that both of you want to continue working with FD in the future.

Think about it.

Eddie Kim