(FEEDBACK) FORMULA D ATLANTA May 8-9th 2009

[courantcom]

Sorry just found this funny cause I used to work on these cars a lot back in the day. But its Karmann Ghia. No hyphen and two n's

I was pretty close...probably closer than a lot of other people. I actually owned a VW 412 back in the day. It was a hand-me-down from my parents. If you know Karmann Ghias then you may recognize that car too...1.8L aircooled rear engined 4 door car.

[courantcom]

by the looks of your report you had TOO MUCH time on your hands. very detailed tho. and also very interesting.

I drive a truck, and I can travel 800 miles or so without stopping for any reason. I go about 65 mph, and so...in that time, I can definitely make some phone calls and talk to people at length.

[courantcom]

A rule is a rule, it was up to him to follow it, regardless of whether he knew about his tire issues or not. You can't blame FD for enforcing the rules.

Why didn't FD enforce the rules on EVERYONE that violated them? Why did they only enforce them on Pat Mordaunt when several other competitors were also in violation. Should I be blaming FD for something else?

[NNog]

So...today I had a bit of time on my hands to call up a few experts on the subject of durometers.

by the looks of your report you had TOO MUCH time on your hands. very detailed tho. and also very interesting.

[courantcom]

So...today I had a bit of time on my hands to call up a few experts on the subject of durometers. I called Misty from Longacre and Daren from Intercomp. BOTH of them agreed that under no circumstances should durometer testing be done on a HOT tire because it will yield inconsistent results.

One more interesting scenario was introduced during my talks...

What if the tire was so worn down, the durometer was actually testing the hardness of the cords beneath the rubber?

Either way, aside from having the same person do the test on all the tires, durometer testing should be done in ambient temperature in the shade on an unmounted tire (tire pressures on a mounted tire can affect results).

So...here are Formula D's tire rules:

9.1 TIRE ELIGIBILITY
Tires must be DOT approved and have a minimum production run of 2,500 tires, tires available in the United States at regular retail outlets.
Tires must have a minimum tread wear rating of 140 (UTQG).
• 17 inch tires must have and MSRP of no more than $500.00
• 18 inch tires must have an MSRP of no more than $750.00.
• 19 inch tires must have and MSRP of no more than $1000.00.
Each entrant must declare their tire manufacturer as a part of the event entry form.

Not all the tires that show up on the Appendix C list can be easily bought at regular retail outlets. I don't think I need to mention specific brands and lines...but you all can just figure out what's easy to find and buy and what's not.

9.2 APPROVED TIRES
Only tires listed in Appendix C will be allowed. Teams who wish to use any size, model, or brand not specified here must file for petition and gain approval from FORMULA DRIFT.

9.3 MODIFICATIONS
9.3.1 Any attempt to modify tires in any manner is prohibited. “Grooving” or
“Shaving” of tires is prohibited.

Is a "used" tire considered shaved? Say for example, the tire is so used, it almost looks shaved. Can those be passable?

9.3.2 The use of traction compounds or any other substance that may alter the physical properties of the tire are prohibited.
9.3.3 Tire warmers or any other means of artificially altering the tire temperatures is prohibited.
9.3.4 Tires must meet a minimum durometer reading of 49, hot or cold, at all times during an EVENT, measured using an ISO868 or ASTM D2240 compliant
Type A durometer.

9.3.4 should be re-written. It should read "Tires must meet a minimum durometer reading of 49 during ambient temperatures unmounted in the shade at all times during an EVENT, measured using an ISO868 or ASTM D2240 complaint Type A durometer."

...that's if and only if Formula D doesn't start putting "seals" on tires prior to the cars actually going on course.

[courantcom]

To my knowledge, many series do their testing after an event. You can't blame FD for an infraction that they caught, whether it happened before or after a run/event. It's up to the drivers to follow the rules, no matter how small or insignificant they may seem. You guys are saying rules should be enforced, and that is what they are doing.

Actually, many series do their tire testing PRIOR to an event. They come to your individual pit in the paddock and ask you what tires you will be using for the event/day. They check the tires right there on the spot and apply a "seal" to them. When you pull up to the line, the starter looks for that seal. If it's there, you're free to go. If the seal is NOT there, you have a problem.

He did answer your questions, but you call his answers weak and unfounded, regardless of what he says. he doesn't even stand a chance.


A rule is a rule, it was up to him to follow it, regardless of whether he knew about his tire issues or not. You can't blame FD for enforcing the rules.

What if the rule is wrong, and a racer is WRONGFULLY disqualified? What if the rule is correct, but the testing procedure was wrong...what then? The rule doesn't say that an infraction will lead to disqualification, or a penalty. It's pretty much whatever they wanna do on the spot. Sounds fair?

Sure. But you downplay valid answers too.

No, I don't. Read my answers and words carefully. It's not my fault if their argument is unfounded/wrong or whatever.

I've seen first hand how sponsored drivers do not get special treatment. Believe it or not, some sponsors don't care about how well their driver's finish (to an extent of course). It's about visibility and connecting with the customers that buy their products. 1st place doesn't guarantee sales, and they aren't going to drop out of the series if their car isn't always on he podium.

You're misreading what I'm saying...I said that Formula D will not jeopardize entries from heavily sponsored cars because it may jeopardize their relationship with them in the present and in the future. If Formula D were to disqualify all the Toyo cars, do you think Toyo would be interested in sponsoring the series any further? If Formula D were to ban all Scions, do you think Toyota would continue to be interested in drifting at all?

This further proves my point that you like to make assumptions and invent conspiracies. I work for FD? Not a chance. Any idiot that walks through the paddocks can walk up to a driver/team/mechanic and ask for a ride in the car. Sometimes being female has its advantages. But nice try.

I think I've proved all my points with you. Normal "idiots" shouldn't be allowed rides in cars. I'm sure it's an insurance violation. I'm not even going to comment on you being a female and assuming that preferential treatment is more along your side.

Finally! A constructive question!

[Brian]

Mr. Jarod, lemme know if you can get me a pair of those Pumas from GB3000. I was trying to figure out a way to get a goody bag at Viceroy, but I didn't.

[J-Rod]

I SAY AGAIN BEST DRIFT EVENT EVER!!!!!!

See you in Jersey...

Participate, congratulate and no hate!!!!

[OldSkool510]

Tiregate.....

[vvtisupra]

With so many variables concerning durometer testing especially directly following a run. Is it not up to the organization to come up with a standardized test?

If I am not mistaken the test can be scewed due to angle in which the durometer is pushed onto the tire. In most cases with cars that have wheels tucked away into the fender. That alone can cause a challenge for the person testing the hardness of a tire ammirite?

Also, the coefficient of friction of the race track and heat and temperature of the race track can all cause variations in tire temperature, not including driving style, driving line, suspension/alignment set up. Ammmirite?

So say Pat did do durometer testing before and aft a run or even when the tire was unmounted or when the wheels were off the car and his durometer read 52 for the whole day. And not until say pat got into 4th place and had a super heated battle with Joon that there was a residual tire build up (plus feathering of the tire) and say the official who was testing in the dark laying on the ground trying to apply the durometer as perpendicular to the tires surface as possible accidentally presses on the residiual tire and reads below 49.


Is it pats fault for such underlaying variables?


For this reason I think Formula D should have a standardized test. Temperature controlled, consistent positioning on a tire, have a fixture for the durometer to be as perpendicular to the tire surface as possible. Before and after readings etc etc. Possibly have a engineering materials testing lab test the current tires being used not only for durometer testing but also for friction material testing.
(because we all know a softer tire isn't always the stickiest of compounds)

And go through the tires before the event and put a unique stamp/seal on the sidewall that approves the tires. This surely is more work and cost for Formula D, but because it is the premier professional drift event I am sure they can make it work. Because we all know that there is more to tire technology than a 40 dollar durometer.


In fact, there is a laboratory that we use out in Bolsa Chica in Huntington Beach not too far from your location. The place is called Stork Materials Testing they do testing for our metallurgy, but im sure they do other material testing. Maybe they can design a standardized test that you guys can do out in the field or maybe submit all the pre approved tires listed in the rule book to be retested and possibly redesign a way to come up with pre approved tires.

Because lets be honest it could be possible that some teams are using compound modifier but I know for a fact that most teams don't even mount tires till they arrive at the track and have the services provided for them.

I know toyo just leaves their tires in a stack next to the tire mounter and only mount the tires when time comes for a new tire. Is there even enough time to use friction modifiers? The only time i heard of that being used was for RC car foam tires that needed to be soaked in a bag for 24 hours.

All in all, I say standardized. Cut away the possibilities of ending a persons season by getting rid of outliers.

[Bebop]

No...only their $ponsor$ will get pissed and wonder why their sponsored team was disqualified, and then maybe their sponsor dollars to Formula D may be in jeopardy. So...from Formula D's standpoint, why would they DQ a competitor that brings them money. Rhys Millen brings in Hyundai and Red Bull. Sam Hubinette brings in BF Goodrich and Mopar. Rhys Millen was on Toyo R1-R tires -- same as Pat Mordaunt. In this "tough economy", everyone needs to do what they can to get the dollars.

Very good pont

[driftforfun]

Its all dollars and sence

Sorry to burst everyones bubble but lets face reality here. Formula Drift is in the business of making money$$$$ Thats all it is. It just happens to be that they make money on drifting.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Ryan, Jim and the rest of the FD staff are not die hard enthusiast like the rest of us. They are businessmen. Smart ones I would say.

Do you think they care about clipping points, angle and speed? Sorry they dont...
While the rest of us are on the edge of our seats cheering for our favorite driver and booing judges for poorly judged runs. They are talking to sponsors, securing media coverage, etc..

If I was them I would not want to piss off my meal tickets like Rhys, Sam, JR and Tanner.
Pat Mondurant? While he is a talented driver and deserves every accolade he receives he offers no financial gain to Formula Drift (No Disrespect to Pat).
Sad to say but Formula Drift is no longer a sport for privateers.

Drifting has officially reached corporate status. Sponsorship dollars are more important than clipping points.

Sad that some of us cant accept that fact.

We all know that Toyo was using a tire softer than specified. Hell so was Hankook and Falken for that matter.

FD knows that it has to enforce the rules but they also do a good job of interpreting the rules. I agree all teams using illegal tires should be DQ from the ATL event. But it wont happen.
Dollars and cents my friends. Remember guys this is a business.

[manny_pacquiao]

man.. this thread is getting out of hand.. the title says "FEEDBACK" not "RANT" i'm just thankful that there is a drifting series out there to support all the great american/international drivers out there that is not a DUB style car show with some drifting in it. from all the twitter updates this event seemed like it was awesome! I think the only negative thing about this event, for me, was that i couldnt be there in person to see the two scions battle head to head. that would have been a great sight to see.

dammn looks like formula drift blew out atlanta with an awesome show! props to formula drift! the formula d twitter updates were awsome! other than that yeah seriously i agress, this looks like more of a "RANT" than "FEEDBACK" thread.

[NNog]

man.. this thread is getting out of hand.. the title says "FEEDBACK" not "RANT" i'm just thankful that there is a drifting series out there to support all the great american/international drivers out there that is not a DUB style car show with some drifting in it. from all the twitter updates this event seemed like it was awesome! I think the only negative thing about this event, for me, was that i couldnt be there in person to see the two scions battle head to head. that would have been a great sight to see.

[rtype16]

It's like someone spending thousands of dollars getting a show car ready for an event, and then having a 14 year old kid come to judge it wondering what in the world is a Kharman-Ghia.

Sorry just found this funny cause I used to work on these cars a lot back in the day. But its Karmann Ghia. No hyphen and two n's