Why on Earth a VIPER?

[Ghost of Duluth]

According to those rules, it is illegal. It does not have the production #s to meet the rules. Plain as that.

But he governing body can make ammends and changes to the rules where they see fit. So there really is no rules if you look at it that way.

[nissanguy_24]

Ghost basicly covered what i was going to say about the 240 vs viper legality thing, while i was at lunch.

The reason we dont count "street legal" to mean federally legal engine modifications is simply because A, all the cars would suck. And B it would give an unfair advantage to guys who show up from Japan or elsewhere. It would be stupid to tell a guy his S13 cant run because hes running a SR with Californian plates. Or even a turbocharged KA thats not carb legal with california plates, but let a Japanese team run the exact same hardware with japanese plates. So there has to be some leway when it comes to that.

This however is irrelavent in my opinion because comparing engine swaps to Factory backed cars that were never street legal to begin with is like comparing apples to oranges. In other words if the Viper competition coupe is legal then so is a full out Winston Cup car, Or the Nissan Le mans car. And yes nissan was required to sell 1 Le mans car to make the homologation rules for it.

The numbers produced however are also irrelavent to me in this conversation. To me, and perhaps Formula D dissagrees, Production numbers need to include cars sold that are street legal. For example the Winston cup cars.. lets pretend they are all the same make, then they easily will have the production numbers to meet the Formula D's requirment of 250 cars.. Comming 50 teams or close to it, each with several cars over the course of a few years. These cars are sold by people, they meet the numbers, So they should be allowed to run right?

But then again what am i talking about, according to you its basicly the same as an illegal turbo charger on a S13.

The rules may not be well defined yet, But thats why we are having this conversation. And yes i believe a SR powered S13 should be illegal and a Viper Competition Coupe should be illegal. IF they want to run a regular viper thats fine. Because the minute they let full blown factory race cars in then it goes beyond the viper fast. And yes thats my personal belief and wants for this sport.

If you want to consider that a bias against american cars then go right ahead.

Originally posted by Ghost of Duluth
According to those rules, it is illegal. It does not have the production #s to meet the rules. Plain as that.

But he governing body can make ammends and changes to the rules where they see fit. So there really is no rules if you look at it that way.

Unfortionately Ghost i feel that is what is happening. Its all politics you know. Either because Pontiac and Dodge have lots of money or will simply draw a more widespread or bigger crowd to the Formula D events. Eitherway its politics plain and simple. They showed up with cars that didnt meet the rules so the guys running the show changed to rules to let them run. Or interperted them in an interesting way so that they can run.

That is unhealthy for the sport in my opinion. Is the Viper some unbeatable beast? no not at all. More then likely Sam is simply one of the best drivers in the leauge and is driving a great car on top of it. Gushi beat the Viper at Laguna Seca with a humble S13 One-via running a sr20 with a S15 turbocharger.

Indeed the viper may force the other guys in the series to get better, but i still feel the viper is opening up a slippery slope that will slide this sport and leauge down to depth were angels fear to tread. A place of tube frame specialty cars thrown away after each race. All of which identical but sporting different names and painted on headlights.

I write these things in hopes that others will agree with me and do what we can to keep the pro levels of drifting from becoming so alien to us grassroots enthusiest.

[Ghost of Duluth]

Unfortunately since Drifting is so new, they are letting cars in like that to get interest up in the sport. I think that there is a place for that car in the sport but since it the sport is so new, a place has not yet been created for it. So it gets to run in the regular events. Once classes start to be made, it will find it's niche as will the rest of the factory backed cars.

I think that for now, it's a big free for all until the day that classes get formed. That makes for interesting competition for me. Except when one car or team has a huge advantage over the rest of the field. Which it is looking like the VCC has. If it continues to win, it should be looked at.

The car is amazing, the driver, while I don't really agree with the way he drives it, is still a great driver. So I think that people need to step up and de-throne him. Let's look at this the same way they would in Japan. If someone beats you, you don't cry, you go back and get better so you can beat them. No matter what they drive.

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Originally posted by noobster
Again, here are the RULES right out of the rulebook:

Eligible Vehicles:

A)Any 2 or 4 door coupe, sedan or sports car.
B)Must be a production car with a minimum build run of 250 units
C)Must maintain original unibody or frame
D)Vehicles that do not meet the above criteria must be approved by the series.

Well, we can discuss this until we are passed out, but still doesn't change D)...

From what we can see, the VCC meets requirement D...

So, what's the merit to our discussions?

[noobster]

Originally posted by nissanguy_24
In other words if the Viper competition coupe is legal then so is a full out Winston Cup car, Or the Nissan Le mans car.

wtf? no, a winston cup car wouldn't be legal because the stock vehicle (like a monte carlo) is NOT a tube frame car from the factory. THE PRODUCTION VIPER IS A TUBE FRAME CAR FROM THE FACTORY! therefore, it stays within the rules because, as the rules state it..."Must maintain original unibody or frame." the viper comp coupe does that. winston cup cars do not thus would violate the rules. although, that friggin hilarious to think about. lol

Originally posted by nissanguy_24
Unfortionately Ghost i feel that is what is happening. Its all politics you know. Either because Pontiac and Dodge have lots of money or will simply draw a more widespread or bigger crowd to the Formula D events. Eitherway its politics plain and simple. They showed up with cars that didnt meet the rules so the guys running the show changed to rules to let them run. Or interperted them in an interesting way so that they can run.

do you know this for sure?????????? if not, ur just spreading rumors and thus hurting the sport yourself.

Originally posted by nissanguy_24
Is the Viper some unbeatable beast? no not at all. More then likely Sam is simply one of the best drivers in the leauge and is driving a great car on top of it. Gushi beat the Viper at Laguna Seca with a humble S13 One-via running a sr20 with a S15 turbocharger.

exactly. the bigger they are...the harder they fall. just watch the LAKERS! hahaha lol.

i dunno....gushi is my fav by far...no doubt. but i dont see a reason yet to put prejudice against the viper. in my opinion, mopar saw what gm was doing and wanted to be competitive quickly. they brought out the viper. and i cant wait to watch it at irwindale in august!!! but i hope gushi blows the doors off him. loL!!!!

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Originally posted by Ghost of Duluth
I think you like debating to hear yourself talk honestly but thats neither here nor there. If you are not a lawyer, you should be and if you are, i'd hate to be the judge at one of your trials.

The rules say that the car has to be street legal. Street legal means that you can get a tag for it and drive it legally. You can get a tag and drive that 240, no matter what engine you have in it, you can't with the Viper. So really right there that part of your debate is moot. You can also pass federal emissions with an SR, so that part of the arguement is also moot. So it really boils down to whether or not a cop will haul you in if you drive it on the street. Drive an SR20 240 on the street and adds are you will drive away from a speeding ticket, drive a VCC and odds are your wife will come pick you up at the pokey and your car will be impounded.

If we looked at things like you did, then no cars would be able to compete unless you rented them from Thrifty. If engine swaps and roll bars make cars illegal, then we are all through. Modding an engine makes cars illegal if you really read into the EPA laws.

Oh yea, I was explaining how homologation laws work, not applyin them to the SCCA rules.

Well, as an engineer, word choise/interpretation is still critical. Lots of care must be used to have clear and concise phrases made such that if something happens down the road, it's not open to litigation.

What I'm doing here is to make everyone think of all other possibilities.

and for the record, SR won't pass Federal emission. It doesn't have EGR, and other needed emission control equipment.

It is to point out while the discussion is on one vehicle that happens to be winning and dominating with a good driver being illegal, that other vehicles should also be put under such scrutiny.

It's only fair. But since we know the rules, and how the organizing body can change it to suit their PR needs, many of the discussions here are moot.

[Craftsman]

I really don't care. I just think the Viper shouldn't be allowed to race in Drift Races...

I think everyone is making the same excuse as me...

Matt.

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by '97 S14 SE Turb
It's only fair. But since we know the rules, and how the organizing body can change it to suit their PR needs, many of the discussions here are moot.

Not really this Discussion forum has brought many things to light in the past. Seems everytime we complain about something the guys in charge are on in a few days.. I've yet to see anyone from mopar on this thread, but i have seen one of the viper team guys on here before.. drives an 86 him self, and i know Sam has posted at least a few times before. By discussing it and letting our feelings be known we can help to change the minds of those in charge. They arent evil untouchable people, they are just regular guys, if we as a community dont like something or think a rule is unfair or not being enforced we say so and hopefully they will listen.

But one thing i've learned here is discussion is never pointless.

['97 S14 SE Turb]

It is [pointless] when both parties never expand on reasoning to support their thoughts.

What we did here, in this particular thread is a good example of laying out the reasoning for supporting such thoughts.

This type of healthy discussion helps the forum.

[Ghost of Duluth]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by noobster
Again, here are the RULES right out of the rulebook:

Eligible Vehicles:

A)Any 2 or 4 door coupe, sedan or sports car.
B)Must be a production car with a minimum build run of 250 units
C)Must maintain original unibody or frame
D)Vehicles that do not meet the above criteria must be approved by the series.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well, we can discuss this until we are passed out, but still doesn't change D)...

From what we can see, the VCC meets requirement D...

So, what's the merit to our discussions?


It does change. The rules plainly state that the car has to have a production run of at least 250 cars. The VCC does not meet that. How much more plain can it get? Also you cannot order a VCC unless you prove to Dodge that you are a Pro driver or Semi pro. You cannot go down to the dealer and order one. I don't see how you can argue that there are the limited number of units to make it legal for FD but i'm sure you will suprise me.

Output is 25 per year, car came out in 2003. Not enough numbers. Not more than 250 means not legal.

[noobster]

Originally posted by Ghost of Duluth
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by noobster
Again, here are the RULES right out of the rulebook:

Eligible Vehicles:

A)Any 2 or 4 door coupe, sedan or sports car.
B)Must be a production car with a minimum build run of 250 units
C)Must maintain original unibody or frame
D)Vehicles that do not meet the above criteria must be approved by the series.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, we can discuss this until we are passed out, but still doesn't change D)...

From what we can see, the VCC meets requirement D...

So, what's the merit to our discussions?

It does change. The rules plainly state that the car has to have a production run of at least 250 cars. The VCC does not meet that. How much more plain can it get?

Output is 25 per year, car came out in 2003. Not enough numbers. Not more than 250 means not legal.

yo, have u been reading the posts man? haha

the viper comp coupe is labled as a trim level off the production viper. dodge makes over 3000+ vipers per year. that why it qualifies in FD and the SCCA Speed Channel World Cup.

[nissanguy_24]

i still believe the competition coupe to be signifigently different enough to warrent its own production numbers. Although admittedly thats just my personal opinion and take on it.

[spock]

I don't think it's a matter of the fact that it's a Viper. The whole debate I think people are trying to get at is that they're using the Viper comp coupe which is essentially a race car right out of the box. As far as I know, those things aren't street legal. Now if they used a GTS coupe things might be different.

[Ghost of Duluth]

Wrong. Seems you have been reading the wrong posts.

The VCC is a special 25 unit production Viper much like the GTS-R was. An of the shelf race car. Porsche did the same thing. REad up on something before you try to show someone up. The regular production Viper is what you are speaking of.


Heres a link, go educate yourself.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1

Here's some other links for anyone else wanting to know exactly what the VCC is.

http://www.dodge-vipers.com/03compcoupe.html
http://www.new-cars.com/news/030307-...ion-coupe.html

Some of those may be duplicates. You can go to the Dodge Viper forums and learn all you want to know. Or maybe use Google.

[Ghost]

i like how the vipers drift with us. it just gives real drifters another challenge. power is nothing compared to skill. i learned that recently. hahaha.